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Old 04-30-2013, 09:05 AM #1
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The Ultimate Mini/Axe Oring Experiment

Quick overview of orings for those that might not know:
Buna N - is almost always the stock material used in most locations. Occasionally urethane is used as well. It is a good all around material.

Viton (FKM) - is a little more expensive, but has better abrasion resistance than buna and a better compression set (meaning it is perfect for a bumper).

Urethane - is significantly more expensive than viton or buna, but excels in dynamic (moving) applications due to it's superior abrasion resistance and low coefficient of friction. It is poorly suited as a bumper due to it's poor compression set.

Other Materials - such as HNBR are not really beneficial over buna, but tend to cost more. I didn't test these.

X-Rings - "O" or "X" simply refers to the cross-section profile of the seal. If you cut the ring and looked at it from the side, this would be the shape.

Durometer - is the hardness of the material. It is important because assuming the same material and seat is used, a lower durometer will have a lower breakaway friction (needed to get it moving). Too soft and you have issues with elongation, extrusion and it will raise the running friction... Long story, but 70 durometer seems to be the standard.


Testing on the Boss Team Series and V2
Bolt:
-Boss Team Series Orings: From what I can tell, these are nothing more than urethane orings dyed for branding. They are very good quality and Boss has taken the trouble out of sourcing them. That said, the team series orings (and urethane) proved to have identical results. Impressively, both allowed me to run about ~5psi lower on my reg to achieve the same velocity as the stock buna orings. The team series orings appear to be -017 (x2 if you use the larger rear bolt oring) and -015.

-017 urethane 70 durometer: When swapping from the boss team series orings I saw no difference. When swapping from buna, I was able to run lower psi. I highly recommend sticking to this size on the bolt front position. I saw inconsistency and even poor cycling when I switched.

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer: These didn't work particularly well on the boss bolt. I had to raise the pressure over the stock buna. I suspect the higher durometer didn't play well with the light weight of the bolt and the low pressure settings I was running. NOT recommended on the boss bolt.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: I tried this in the front and back bolt locations. I found it suitable for the rear position, but on the front it gave inconsistent chrono readings. I still find that -015 works better on the rear position.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: This is the equivalent if running the small boss team series oring. As expected, it worked very well. My suggestion is -017 front and -015 rear.

Summary: All said, the boss team series and/or urethane seemed to work best and IMO they're the exact same thing.

Bumper:
-Boss Team Series: Oddly enough the oring Boss provides for this position is quite hard. It also appears to be a -015 urethane 90 durometer. If you read the oring overview, urethane is a poor material selection due to it's inferior compression set. (To you owners, pull this oring and you'll see it looks like an oval... that's the poor compression set in work!)

-Boss V2 Stock: Appears to be an un-dyed -015 urethane oring.

-015 viton 75 durometer: I have put these through the ringer. They are softer, and thus in theory, should absorb more shock AND they seem to have great longevity in this location.

Summary: All said, an -015 75 durometer viton oring is my recommendation in this location.



Testing on the Shocktech
-017 urethane 70 durometer: Not surprisingly, again, the -017 in the front position is almost always a must have. In the rear position you can run the -017 or smaller.

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer: While the stock bolt seemed to tolerate the viton x-rings quite well, the shocktech didn't seem to like them. Without putting calipers on them, the shocktech oring grooves seem slightly narrower than stock. I suggest passing on the x-rings.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: Identical to stock, the slightly smaller -016 seemed to be the best in the rear bolt position. The ID of this bolt fits the bolt guide more loosely, and the reduced friction of this oring combo makes for lower pressure operation. The venturi seems to make a quieter shot too.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: This thing almost didn't clear the side of the oring seat. I suggest staying away.

Summary: Similar to stock, I suggest 70 durometer urethane as a -017 for the front bolt position and a -016 for the rear.



Testing on the Tech T Gold Bolt
-017 urethane 70 durometer:

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer:

-016 urethane 70 durometer:

-015 urethane 70 durometer:

Summary:


Testing on the Lurker Eigenbolt
Bolt:
-017 urethane 70 durometer: Worked consistently well. In every instance, where there was no additional friction from the bolt guide or spacer this proved to be a reliable choice.

-017 viton x-ring 75 durometer: This was a terrible set-up. Typically x-rings have lower friction, but I suppose in lower pressure applications the additional squeeze on these made them cycle poorly. So bad, in fact, that half the time the bolt wouldn't fully cycle and when it did it would only shoot 140-160fps.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: In my testing I actually found this to be the most consistent (fps grouping) and best settings (lowest dwell and psi) when it worked. It actually worked quite well in all but one of the 4 axes it was tested in and luckily the one it didn't work in belongs to a friend. This is what I run on my main gun.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: For some reason the gun wouldn't even cycle correctly with this oring. I am not sure it was even sealing. It worked for a few shots when I first installed it, but then stopped cycling correctly. I suspect the casting flash rubbed off and it stopped making a seal after that.

Summary: For the bolt, -016 yielded the best results for me, however, if you only want to buy one size, then go with -017 urethane.

Spacer:
-016 urethane 70 durometer: In applications where the Lurker included -016 fits inside the bolt (ID) this works very well. In almost every instance I personally had to run an -015. I suspect both my bolts came from the same lot and batch and have a similar fit.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: In every case I tested, this worked best for me. The reduced hardness of the oring seemed to let the bolt slide off easier, yet retained seal fidelity. This is my suggestion.

-015 urethane 90 durometer (tank oring): This is the suggestion Lurker gives if the -016 binds. Overall it seemed to work well, but the harder seal seemed to take a little more force to break loose. The main difference I saw in this and the 70 durometer was a little better velocity grouping in a string.

Summary: Unfortunately, you'll have to kind of hand-fit this one. I'd say go ahead and order 70 durometer urethane in both -015 and -016 sizes.

I have also had the privilege of testing a new prototype spacer that has been redesigned to prevent slippage AND makes for an easier installation. It is a 2-piece clamshell design. There were some small tweaks made for production, but -015 70 durometer urethane, -015 90 durometer urethane (tank oring), and -013 (any material) seemed to work amazingly. This fixed almost all the complaints people have with the Lurker bolt system. It is easy to install, doesn't slip, is easy to remove and isn't sensitive to lube getting under it (I know... I lubed under it on purpose).



Color coding urethane orings: I will post up a how to, specifically for paintball, but urethane is commonly dyed in skating: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-...-and-bushings/






This Thread will take a while for me to finish, but I am going to summarize my experiences with each of these bolts. I own 2 axes and tech 2 more so these tests have been conducted over 4 axes.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:41 AM #2
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Testing on the Stock Bolt
-017 urethane 70 durometer: Not really any surprise here, but the only size I could get to work consistently was a -017 in the front position. It can be used in the rear position as well, but I had better results running a smaller bolt rear oring.

-017 viton x-ring(s) 75 durometer: To my amazement (due to previous failures) this actually worked decently well. Right after initial installation it seemed tighter and I had to raise reg pressure about ~3psi or so, but as the rings broke in, not even 500rounds later, the psi started coming back down. After a case or so these were about 8psi or so lower than the original tuned stock bolt. When I ran a super slick lube like MacDev Militia v2 it got even better. Oddly, this was one of the only applications where they seemed to work right. The consistency was nice and the pressure was lowered.

-016 urethane 70 durometer: This can easily be run in the rear location. In fact, in some applications it appeared significantly more consistent than the -015 in the rear position and the psi stayed almost the same.

-015 urethane 70 durometer: The -015 in the rear position was a bit confusing to me. It seemed to work very well as the pressure was able to drop (vs a -017), but the velocity groupings got wider. I'm not sure why this happened, but I speculate there was some blowby or something. It made only a marginal difference over the performance over the -016.

Summary: For the stock bolt you have more room to tinker... The x-rings seemed to work decently in this scenario, but my strongest recommendation is a -017 in the front bolt position and a -016 in the rear bolt position, both 70 durometer urethane.


Bolt Guide Orings
Boss team series bolt guide orings: Again, these appear to be dyed urethane oring. They work fantastic and seem to solve many issues related to friction such as inconsistency and poor cycling. The main thing I've noticed is that these almost always allow a lower dwell setting.

1.5mm x 11mm (metric) urethane 70 durometer: I am working to source these cheaply for the community, but IMO these should be the stock oring material or should be provided with any delrin aftermarket bolt. The Lurker eigenbolt seemed to gain the most from these, but across the board these are far superior to stock buna with all bolts and configurations.

Summary: Boss or urethane should absolutely be used in this position.


Bolt guide bumper
-012 viton 75 durometer: I believe this should have been the stock offering in this position. Since the edge of the bolt hits in the center of this oring they deform fairly quickly. Buna does fine, but can cause stick as the bolt begins to cut into this ring. Most people tend to neglect this, but I recommend it for any bolt system (read any bolt except Lurker) that retains a ring in this location. Stock size is actually a 1.5mm x 11mm (metric), but since this isn't a dynamic seal the -012 works just as well, is cheaper and more available.

Summary: For peak longevity, run a -012 viton 75 durometer in this location.


Poppet Oring
Stock: The oring installed on all 4 poppets (I pulled off to polish them) sized in at -013, however it is a 90 durometer urethane (It is actually a metric 2mm x 10mm 90duro urethane).

-013 urethane 70 durometer: This actually seems to be the most similar to the stock size poppet oring removed from all 4 axes whose poppet I polished. This is essentially just running a softer version of the stock oring. I didn't notice much if any difference, however, some bolt guides are looser than others, so I am keeping some around as spares/ stock replacement.

-012 urethane 70 durometer: Over time the undersizing leads to issues fairly quickly. If you have a black bolt guide then these still seem to fit better than the -013.


-013 buna xring 70 durometer: On 3 of the 4 axes I tune this is the right size. The only difference I saw in this and the softer urethane rings is that these seem to tighten up the velocity. Making a claim like that is hard because there's so many variables, but notionally it seems to work. THIS IS MY RECOMMENDED POPPET SEAL.

-012 buna xring 70 durometer: Use this with black bolt guides.

-011 urethane 70 durometer: Even in my tight bolt guide -011 was too small to seal. You can try it, but I suggest -012.

Summary: I highly suggest trying a -013 70 durometer xring in this location in addition to polishing the poppet.

Zero tools is the cheapest place to buy the quattro seals... They're like $5 for a bag of 100.
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Last edited by ironyusa : 11-24-2014 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:23 PM #3
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Awesome write-up!
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:42 PM #4
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Holy Smokes man! Great breakdown. I'm going to pick up those poppet orings as per your recommendation.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:31 PM #5
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Holy Smokes man! Great breakdown. I'm going to pick up those poppet orings as per your recommendation.
So far, this has been the best source: http://www.theoringstore.com/index.p...th=367_454_453

You may even want to try -011, -012 and -013. On one of my bolt guides it seemed like I could have gone even looser. Again, the seal isn't too critical (there's a hole in the poppet for crying out loud) so you want it pretty loose.

I am also working with them to get the 1.5mm x 11mm bolt guide orings in urethane. -012 and -013 were too tight so the stock size works best.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:29 PM #6
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Originally Posted by ironyusa;78712746[I
I have also had the privilege of testing a new prototype spacer that has been redesigned to prevent slippage AND makes for an easier installation. It is a 2-piece clamshell design. There were some small tweaks made for production, but -015 70 durometer urethane, -015 90 durometer urethane (tank oring), and -013 (any material) seemed to work amazingly. This fixed almost all the complaints people have with the Lurker bolt system. It is easy to install, doesn't slip, is easy to remove and isn't sensitive to lube getting under it (I know... I lubed under it on purpose). [/i]
will there be a thread coming for this version. That spacer was holding me back from getting one. Would love to see this one.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:38 PM #7
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will there be a thread coming for this version. That spacer was holding me back from getting one. Would love to see this one.
I am not 100% sure what timeline Ryan has planned, but I do know that the issues most people were experiencing such as spacer slip or having to sand the ID of the spacer are fixed. I lubed underneath mine, then installed it and it never blew forward.

Hopefully he'll stop in and give a status update.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:46 PM #8
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Wow nice job. Looks like I'm ordering some orings for my poppet right now. Thanks for all your hard work
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Old 04-30-2013, 05:33 PM #9
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I talked to the oring store and they are getting some urethane 1.5mm x 11mm bolt guide orings. The mentioned that they will be 2-3 weeks out. I will order a small quantity from them to verify fitment, but assuming they work (which I'm confident they will) then I'd suggest everyone stock up.

The bolt guide oring size was taken from here: http://simonized.com/showthread.php?21-Axe-O-ring-sizes (The size he shows for the poppet IS NOT what was installed in any of the 4 axes I've worked on.)
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:22 PM #10
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I just made and order from the oring store:

3x 012 U70 Urethane O-ring
3x 015 U70 Urethane O-ring
3x 016 U70 Urethane O-ring
3x 017 U70 Urethane O-ring
4x 015 B75 Brown Viton O-ring
9x 1.5 X 11 Metric Urethane 70 O-ring

This is what I'm using as my oring configuration so far:

Lurker Eigenbolt:
- outer body oring: (1) 017 urethane
- spacer, outer: (1) 016 urethane
- spacer, inner: (1) 014 90 duro buna
- spring/bolt bumper orings: (2) 015 brown viton

Bolt guide: (3) 1.5x11 urethane

Going to try your recommendation for using a 012 urethane for the poppet body, I'll let you know how it works.

Great write up!
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:56 PM #11
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Just a note, but the bolt guide orings were custom ordered per my request. They believe that the warehouse may have some in stock but it may be 2-3 weeks tops.

Please post up and let me know your results and I'll modify the initial post as appropriate. I can't wait to see if other people have the crazy results I had with the poppet.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:36 PM #12
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I ordered the 3 different sizes for the poppet. I'll certainly inform after I check it out. Currently use infamous bolt with boss orings on bolt guide. Shall see how it goes
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:03 AM #13
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Thanks for the positive feedback all. I welcome feedback and other people's experience.
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:26 PM #14
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I must have a Lurker bolt from the same run as you, ironyusa, I have to use a 015 on the outside of my spacer too or it would constantly rip the spacer off the back of the bolt guide. Just for kicks and giggles last weekend I placed a very small amount of pure silicone in the groove at the back of the bolt guide, so when I put the spacer on it pressed it out behind the spacer and formed a wonderful suction seal to keep the spacer from being able to move at all. It worked wonderfully.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:02 PM #15
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You did read where I mentioned that there's a redesigned spacer on the way right? The new ones are milled so the aluminum spacer fits in the groove at the back and they use 3 orings to hold the 2-piece clam-shell together. The front one is the normal spacer seal, the middle one helps hold the pieces together, the rear most oring prevents air from getting in behind the spacer and pushing it forward. I love the design because it is easy on, easy off.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:45 PM #16
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If I can find some 012 urethanes at MAO I might see about trying it on the poppet and see how it looks over a chronograph.

Appreciate all the time you are putting into this!
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:07 PM #17
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Originally Posted by ironyusa View Post
You did read where I mentioned that there's a redesigned spacer on the way right? The new ones are milled so the aluminum spacer fits in the groove at the back and they use 3 orings to hold the 2-piece clam-shell together. The front one is the normal spacer seal, the middle one helps hold the pieces together, the rear most oring prevents air from getting in behind the spacer and pushing it forward. I love the design because it is easy on, easy off.
I did, and expect to get one when it is released.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:28 PM #18
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If I can find some 012 urethanes at MAO I might see about trying it on the poppet and see how it looks over a chronograph.

Appreciate all the time you are putting into this!
If your poppet glides freely in the guide then it may not work too well, but like I said Simon posted the poppet size as a 2mm x 10mm. I am not sure if the factory changed something or that is a type-o but what was installed sized in at a -013 90 durometer urethane (which is close to the metric size). A -013 is 1.78mm x 10.82mm. A -012 is 1.78mm x 9.25mm.

I can also emphatically say that the bolt guide orings being 1.5mm x 11mm did not work with -012 or -013s in that position. The axe kind of confuses me... I seem to have lost my calipers, but there seems to be a fairly big variance between guns.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:41 PM #19
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If your poppet glides freely in the guide then it may not work too well, but like I said Simon posted the poppet size as a 2mm x 10mm. I am not sure if the factory changed something or that is a type-o but what was installed sized in at a -013 90 durometer urethane (which is close to the metric size). A -013 is 1.78mm x 10.82mm. A -012 is 1.78mm x 9.25mm.

I can also emphatically say that the bolt guide orings being 1.5mm x 11mm did not work with -012 or -013s in that position. The axe kind of confuses me... I seem to have lost my calipers, but there seems to be a fairly big variance between guns.
I too have noticed that different axe's like different things (and have slightly different tolerances). One axe on the team in perticular seems to run at a lower pressure than the rest, even with different relay's on the marker, I thought the first relay/gauge was possibly faulty but for some reason it just runs 10 to 15 psi lower than the rest.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:57 AM #20
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Wow! This is awesome. Awesome work. I just made an order at the oring store
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:31 PM #21
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I will be placing another order tonight likely. If you guys have any other ideas or suggestions for sizing then just email them and they'll make it happen.
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