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Old 03-29-2013, 10:00 AM #1
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Spyder Improvement

Why hasnt spyder made better guns. Ever since i started paintballing spyder hasnt improved much. Their best gun right now is probably the spyder fenix.
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Old 03-29-2013, 11:42 AM #2
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its really up to the ceo of the company what market they want to target. Production cost, meaning quality of materials and assembly. Chang has the markers made in taiwan and sent back here to california. the blow back system is the most affordable to make and repair. I think GoG enmey being offered at 129.99 is going to take a lot buyers. from that price range.
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Old 03-30-2013, 08:58 PM #3
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Between them and Tippmann, they have the corner on the less than $150 marker market.
Its the same as asking why Kia does not make a car for racing. Why? Because they make affordable new cars, that work just fine.
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Old 04-01-2013, 07:53 AM #4
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Besides. The spyder fenix is an extraordinary marker for its price tag.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:48 PM #5
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It's been said above, but yeah, it's a market. They hold the under $200 market. Everyone and his brother has owned a Spyder at one time or another, and there's something to be said for that. Overall, I think that it's a very logical decision that they stick with easy-to-maintain, cheap, user-friendly markers that target the "first gun" market. Sure, they could easily make something to compete with the Axe or the G6R or DMs, but I don't think that's their speed.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:12 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Me9aman View Post
Why hasnt spyder made better guns. Ever since i started paintballing spyder hasnt improved much. Their best gun right now is probably the spyder fenix.
http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/markers_hammer.html


Because you started ballin too recently and don't know your history! Its ok, short version; Spyders are mechanical open bolt blow back markers, which basically sear releases the hammer, spring propels forward to hit the poppit and then blowback air returns the hammer. It doesn't matter if your using the 2014 fenix or a 20 year old classic they operate the same, ALL modifications are just small improvements. This is also the only design that will let you use CO2 with reckless abandon.

Next is the Electronic Hammer, this otherwise would be called a FASOR design. Forward Air, Spring Operated Return, in reference to the hammer is now half pneumatic. There is a solenoid that feed low pressure air to the back of the hammer/ram to open the valve and then a spring returns the ram to rest.

Finally you get to the refined design of full pneumatic (ram). The hammer is now replaced with a lighter ram and its both actuated forward and back via air pressure without the aid of springs. This allows the most control over how long the popit is opened. This designed is used first in Boblong Intimators and later with Planet Eclipse.

Hope that clears things up.



Also @2nkyka since you mention it, the G6R is basically the refined version of a spyder. It always amuses me that I have a Boblong millenium which is STTB with a fatty striker and then right next to it the G6R.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:42 PM #7
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Yep, the G6R (and older intimidators for that matter) are refined spyders. Replacing the sear, spring, and striker for a much more efficient pneumatic ram.

I wanna build a 2k5'd spimmy :/ I miss my old body I was milling for one.

Spyder's stbb design make them ridiculously easy to maintain and modify, as well as being very reliable
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:30 PM #8
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Actually, Ferret, I don't think that relates to his question much at all. And I may be wrong, but, I don't think he was asking why isn't the STBB design more improved, but rather why Spyder (Kingman) hasn't designed a better marker (different design) to compete with poppets and spoolies, i.e., something that you can use in most tournaments without at least getting strange looks. The Ravens had some improvements, but they really didn't do too much.

Maybe another way to frame the question is: Why hasn't Kingman bought out Mokal (or similar) and used/improved their design to really compete with the top-tier markers?

Part of it could be because they haven't had to, as has been previously mentioned. However, I think most of us would agree that we wouldn't mind staying in the Kingman family and being able to get a better gun.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:09 PM #9
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When anybody ask "why isn't better" I only have to ask "have you ever really used one". The 08 electra is still probably my favorite marker. I don't really care what think what I look like while i shoot them out, there are people out there that would whoop our *** with nothing but cocker pumps. On top of that the general consumer really can't tell the difference between how most guns operate unless they are broken. I had people thinking my VS2 was a boblong until I let them know what was up. I guess I don't understand why anyone is "too good" to shoot a spyder anymore because the can shoot 20bps out of the box ===] ={ D


Also: spyders are poppets and so are bob long and egos.


edit: As far as the EM1 and ravan primal they were during a time when companies were trying to push for the next best design while smart parts was reaking havoc on the paintball community. So on top of that there were (for all I know still are) patent issue with electro pnematic markers that smart parts had their grubby hands on.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:42 PM #10
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And ferret, don't forget, the Java Edition Em1 would shoot 20bps out of the box, FULL AUTO even.

Hell, the OTP barrel the Java EM1 came with is so nice that I actually use it as my main barrel against several other barrels I have, though, my barrel line up consists of many random stock barrels, and empire twister, and an armson stealth.

Spyders don't NEED to be better. and kingman doesn't NEED to make a higher end gun. They rock in the sub 150-200 range, and it's such a proven design that the most innovative thing they've come up with is adding a ballanced valve to the VS markers.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:09 PM #11
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Yeah, the valving system of the G6R and the Ego and a couple other mid and high-ends like the Fusion FX from Dangerous Power are poppets, same as Spyders and 'Cockers. It's interesting to see the improvements, as the G6R uses the rammer system and a solenoid to precisely fire the marker. I think I'd have a good time with a G6R/Timmy if I could find one cheap enough...I have NO money whatsoever...
I agree with the Spyders being pretty amazing out of the box. I've used everything from the first Xtras to the most recent VS series as well as lots of clones (Viewloader, Brass Eagle, PMI, Azodin) and I still keep returning to this design. It's easy to work on and doesn't require an airsmith to perform a lot of the maintenance. I've been working on them for quite some time and never had one I couldn't fix! I think Spyder would rather have that corner of the market, the corner of user-maintained, reliable, easy to clean markers.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:32 PM #12
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Alrighty then... consider this:

Does anyone think Kingman should revisit the Raven line? As in, build some frames with tighter specs, more features, Raven badge, and a higher price point? Features such as LCD board, Tech-T style bolt, better reg, better ASA, clamping feedneck, different alloy for a lighter body, etc. A bunch of little things that we all have done after factory that are improvements, though they would increase cost.

I'm not arguing that Spyders are more than sufficient, but unless there is a major change in marketing, Spyders will always be Spyders. With a few mods and the Raven tag, there wouldn't be the need to "change" Spyder, and Kingman would have a new audience. I'm sure there are many people who have been in the sport less than, what, 5 years, that have no idea what Raven is/was besides soft goods.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:23 AM #13
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Honestly if Raven were to comeback. They should have given them the Spyder Fenix. I can see some improvements to be made such as I have done to my Fenix and I have made it more efficient and shoot with minimal kick. But what it comes down to is that its still a blowback. It would be difficult to make a high end blowback. Possible. But there isn't a crowd big enough for it. You have markers in the 300-400 range that will blow it away.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:49 PM #14
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Kingman could if they wanted to tap into the poppet style marker. like many spyder fans with the creation of Spimmies. they would have to invest alot of money in promoting. I personally think they should have gone in that direction after the 09 electra( solid marker). Eko valve with electra= one hell of a blowback marker in the $140.00 range. BUT they decided on one of the biggest blunders..trying to create a market for the .50 cal. line.....WRONG!
Spyder is a solid choice for the semi marker crowd. the XTRA with eko valve is awesome. The fenix is good not great, hence just a stripped down electra with eko valve, but minus asa on/off. I'm personally loving the idea of the GOG enmey. A mechanical spool valve...with the softer air push and lower operating pressure and quieter sound signature.. its a great mechanical marker without the weight of an autococker.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:11 AM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnkywitagun View Post
Kingman could if they wanted to tap into the poppet style marker. like many spyder fans with the creation of Spimmies. they would have to invest alot of money in promoting. I personally think they should have gone in that direction after the 09 electra( solid marker). Eko valve with electra= one hell of a blowback marker in the $140.00 range. BUT they decided on one of the biggest blunders..trying to create a market for the .50 cal. line.....WRONG!
Spyder is a solid choice for the semi marker crowd. the XTRA with eko valve is awesome. The fenix is good not great, hence just a stripped down electra with eko valve, but minus asa on/off. I'm personally loving the idea of the GOG enmey. A mechanical spool valve...with the softer air push and lower operating pressure and quieter sound signature.. its a great mechanical marker without the weight of an autococker.
funny thing, the Newer style spyders were release in 2008, in case anyone forgot There was a stock market crash =/. So that alone IMO had to be a huge ballys move that probably paid off by now. New slick design that at the time only really had to compete with the already fading smartparts as far as sub $200 goes. The eko valve wasn't release until the fenix so 2012 would be the first year for that. The Synergy Efficient valve or the "SE" valve was used in the (07?)RS, 08+electra and pilot. So it took 5 years to actually modify the valve itself further and only slightly. The Fenix IMO was a response to AZODIN who offered an even cheaper alternative, so I see cost cut to compete with them.

As far as GOG, incase you all forgot that Smart Part incarnate. Literally the Original Owners at the EXACT same address. I really don't feeling like getting a perma ban, because I have nothing nice to say and neither should you, but you do realize the spool valve is not mechanical, its the solenoid thats operated mechanically. Not like an autococker at all unless lumpping all guns where pull triggers in the same group. In case your curious here's the drop in mech kit for an ion http://www.mcarterbrown.com/forums/d...e-thread*.html
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:46 PM #16
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lol.. 3 am post! I hereby christen you official watchdog of this forum. Congrats!
I'm not hating on Gog. just stating its a good alternative from a blow back for someone who wants the softer shot of a spool valve and the accuracy of a closed bolt autococker.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:31 AM #17
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Ok so this will probaly be the stupidest question on the nation but my dad does not understand paintball at all and doesn't understand why I need to upgrade from a spyder fenix to a Boblong g6r he doesn't see why I should do it so I need to show him all the people's reveiws and make him change his mind
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Old 06-13-2013, 10:59 PM #18
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Hey Micheal and maybe Micheal's dad if your listening in. Welcome to pbnation! I can tell you must be really new here and as you pretty much just annihilated and ignored a bunch of rules. The First one you may want to consider finding a rules page to avoid getting banned for something silly like a "VS" thread you just accidentally tried to start. I understand you want to compare but this isn't the place for it, and most other sub-forums will just ban you and/or delete your post which doesn't really help you. The other 2 aren't as serious but just general rude posting etiquette, If you have a question or thought don't be afraid to start a new thread! Posting in older ones and off topic usually just get you poor response. Here in the Kingman/spyder forum its pretty relaxed so feel free to post in our OFF TOPIC, its a little slow, but there are a bunch intimator owners that hang around should need any more insight.


Now to your question. You don't need a G6R unless you can afford the G6R. The fenix is a good gun, and if you really want I can break it down to very specfic reasons why you should just stick with spyder for now. I should add i actually own a G6R and use it as my main. The first thing is the G6R is top of the line marker, its very refined compared to others and cost is up there for a brand new one. To start things off should still want one you NEED a Low pressure tank, which means spending the extra cash on a new tank or getting a new valve, this is a must. The next thing is its much more difficult to fix than a spyder and you will probably end up taking it a tech every time this happens. All markers break, especially with high use which I assume your going to use a lot if you can get a G6R. A spyder is nothing like that, a very flexible marker, CO2, HP/LP, still shoots even if there is a leak, and then you can fix it really quickly aside from board failures. I'm going to stop there with the basic comparison shoot me a Private Message if you really want more or maybe post in an OT for more direction on this situation you have.

The next thing, is more of new player advice: When do I NEED Find the weak spots in your game? what are are they when do they happen? Answering if I could shoot "XYZ BPS" means your not ready and only going to waste paint. Typically your the weakest part, These markers don't magically make you better, learn to shoot, the groupings, the distance, how the wind changes all of that. How to play the games you play in the positions you play. Best player I know still shoots a beat up A-5 because he's out there to have fun. Then You got to realize that your not going to shoot faster than 13bps in PSP modes whether its a Boblong or a Spyder, and even if you shoot in semi-auto, it actually takes skill to hone in past 13bps and most people that do that are not moving either.


My advice to Micheal dad: get a pump gun.
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Old 06-14-2013, 07:38 AM #19
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Originally Posted by ferret15 View Post
Hey Micheal and maybe Micheal's dad if your listening in. Welcome to pbnation! I can tell you must be really new here and as you pretty much just annihilated and ignored a bunch of rules. The First one you may want to consider finding a rules page to avoid getting banned for something silly like a "VS" thread you just accidentally tried to start. I understand you want to compare but this isn't the place for it, and most other sub-forums will just ban you and/or delete your post which doesn't really help you. The other 2 aren't as serious but just general rude posting etiquette, If you have a question or thought don't be afraid to start a new thread! Posting in older ones and off topic usually just get you poor response. Here in the Kingman/spyder forum its pretty relaxed so feel free to post in our OFF TOPIC, its a little slow, but there are a bunch intimator owners that hang around should need any more insight.


Now to your question. You don't need a G6R unless you can afford the G6R. The fenix is a good gun, and if you really want I can break it down to very specfic reasons why you should just stick with spyder for now. I should add i actually own a G6R and use it as my main. The first thing is the G6R is top of the line marker, its very refined compared to others and cost is up there for a brand new one. To start things off should still want one you NEED a Low pressure tank, which means spending the extra cash on a new tank or getting a new valve, this is a must. The next thing is its much more difficult to fix than a spyder and you will probably end up taking it a tech every time this happens. All markers break, especially with high use which I assume your going to use a lot if you can get a G6R. A spyder is nothing like that, a very flexible marker, CO2, HP/LP, still shoots even if there is a leak, and then you can fix it really quickly aside from board failures. I'm going to stop there with the basic comparison shoot me a Private Message if you really want more or maybe post in an OT for more direction on this situation you have.

The next thing, is more of new player advice: When do I NEED Find the weak spots in your game? what are are they when do they happen? Answering if I could shoot "XYZ BPS" means your not ready and only going to waste paint. Typically your the weakest part, These markers don't magically make you better, learn to shoot, the groupings, the distance, how the wind changes all of that. How to play the games you play in the positions you play. Best player I know still shoots a beat up A-5 because he's out there to have fun. Then You got to realize that your not going to shoot faster than 13bps in PSP modes whether its a Boblong or a Spyder, and even if you shoot in semi-auto, it actually takes skill to hone in past 13bps and most people that do that are not moving either.


My advice to Micheal dad: get a pump gun.
This^. There is nothing wrong starting off with a good mechanical spyder. The first 2 guns i ever owned where a commando gt and spyder tl. I used the tl for quite some time and glad i did because i believe im a better player for it.

But like others have said, spyder isnt going to change any time soon. If you want a decent gun fairly cheap, keep your eyes open for an RS. I picked one up in decent condition (just a little paint wear on eye covers, barrel tip and a stripped rear spring adjuster) for 50 bucks. I picked up a green vs2 body kit with barrel tip brand new for 20 off of amazon, tadao board and musashi 7 chip, new trigger and feed neck for another 60 total, all new. With 130 total invested, its a pretty accurate gun that also dang quick.
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Old 06-15-2013, 10:17 PM #20
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I don't use my Fenix that much, but bring it as a back up. How do you modify it so it does not fart and go full auto when the air pressure is low?
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Old 06-16-2013, 03:28 AM #21
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I don't use my Fenix that much, but bring it as a back up. How do you modify it so it does not fart and go full auto when the air pressure is low?
Fill your tank is the only real answer.. and maintain your marker. If you have too low of a tank it farts due to not enough pressure to re-cock. If you don't maintain it, ie clean an oil the bottom assembly mostly it won't perform as well as it should either. You could try turning your reg up a little bit too if. Sometimes if thats too low it won't want to function properly sometimes although this one might be the last thing you check if you setup right. CO2 you can lower pressure by a little bit IMO because it spikes up as you shoot, where as HPA is set and constant so you need to tune it for all conditions a little more thoroughly.
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