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Old 03-05-2013, 07:59 PM #1
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BST and paypal

ok so im not new to paintball or this forum, but this has really been bugging me lately and i need to voice that. since theres no general forum in BST, and I think newbies should see the this, so I'm putting it here. Mods feel free to moved if needed.

anyway...

I've been seeing more and more sellers in BST telling the buyers that they have to either send paypal payment as a gift (doing this gives the buyer no protection at all if the seller decides not to send item, or if item is not as described), or they have to cover the paypal fees. A SELLER ASKING/REQUIRING A BUYER TO PAY/COVER PAYPAL FEES IS AGAINST PAYPAL TOS!

So why does it seem acceptable for so many people to do this on here? I dont expect PBN to go policing all threads and reporting people to paypal. But I would expect something that is against TOS for paypal to be at the very least frowned upon by PBN.

Are you sellers such cheapskates that you cant afford a fee for a luxury service provided to you? I mean, you could wait for the buyer to send payment via snail mail, then wait some more to make sure it clears. Instead, you get your money instantly. Its a service and benefit for you the seller moreso than the buyer, hence the reason the SELLER is responsible for the fees, NOT THE BUYER!

If someone wants to risk it and send money as a gift, thats on them, but a buyer should not have to pay a higher price for playing by the rules of the payment system in use.

So PBN mods/members - I would love to hear other peoples take on this. and i'm donning my flamesuit now cuz i know this is gonna be a heated one and im steadfast on my belief
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:04 PM #2
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I agree with you. It makes no sense for the buyer to have to pay for the fees. Especially when most sellers are also asking buyers to lay for shipping. I don't mind paying for shipping. But if the seller will lay the fees it would make me a bit happier

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Old 03-05-2013, 08:05 PM #3
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I agree with you. I have no clue who or what set the precedent of "buyer covers fees" here on the Nation, but it's a cheapskate tactic. You're presented with two options: pay more by covering fees, or pay less by gifting but in doing so lose any protection that PayPal offers in case of fraud or scam.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:09 PM #4
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And I love how the guys with higher feedback tend to do this more often. they say things like "its ok to gift it. i have 1,000 positive feedback!" or "if you still dont trust me, then you can cover my fees"


so not right by any means. glad to see im not the only one that feels this way.

really interested in what the mods have to say
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:12 PM #5
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I try not to pay to much attention to feedback. Yes the higher positive feedback a user has kinda makes your mind at ease. But realistically you are doing a transaction with your money or goods for their moment or goods. Handle each transaction as it's own not basing anything on a users past transactions.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:13 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballdj22 View Post
I try not to pay to much attention to feedback. Yes the higher positive feedback a user has kinda makes your mind at ease. But realistically you are doing a transaction with your money or goods for their moment or goods. Handle each transaction as it's own not basing anything on a users past transactions.
Exactly. You cant base someone credibility on a number on a forum. And when they ask you to violate TOS, it tends to harm their credibility....
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:16 PM #7
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:17 PM #8
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Exactly a good user/seller will follow the rules and best they can. Not go against what they say.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:39 PM #9
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From sellers point of view fees and other misc expenses are always worked into the price of product. In an effort to keep my prices low I prefer my customers to gift the payment. As far as feedback goes, it does count for something. I have worked very hard to get my feedback rating where it is today and I would never risk my feedback rating for any reason. I'm always 100% honest when selling my item and if a problem ever arises I always make sure to make that customer happy. People Trust me as a seller and I have a impeccable reputation on PBNation so members feel safe sending me money as a gift. I would however recommend if you have one doubt in your mind that you may be getting scammed or a used has more than a couple neutrals or a negative to never send money as a gift. I have been scammed twice in the past year by gifting money.

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Old 03-05-2013, 08:59 PM #10
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I agree with the OP. I'm not sure who started the whole "gift or pay pp fees" but it seems more & more sellers are jumping on the bandwagon.

This is the only forum that "allows" sellers to say / do this. Every other forum I am on it's frowned upon and generally your ad gets deleted.

As a general rule of thumb I will NEVER gift the money. Idc if you have 1000+ feedback and no negative. You are still a stranger to me and how do I know I won't be the 1 person you decide to screw over intentially or not.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:12 PM #11
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I cant help but notice the ones whining about feedback are the ones who have almost none. Its an excellent reference to legitimacy. If you disagree or dont want to cooperate with someone who has high feedback then buy from the guy who has 0-10 feedback and when you receive a beat up or non functional item dont complain.

If you dont want to cover fees or gift, then feel free to come pick up the item. If you dont want to do that, well then i guess we will just up our price to adjust for our fees (which is what most sellers will do)

I dont say 500 plus paypal fees, i say 500 pp'd, which basically means im paying my own fees and therefore you are paying me more.

So really, youre paying the same either way.
You act like paypal is only helpful to sellers, its definately just as helpful to buyers. People want everything so cheap now, its like everyone feels they are entitled to amazing deals and discounts. If you want what someones selling buy it or dont, but dont complain because you dont want to pay what theyre asking.
Apologies if that was excessively harsh, buy like i said if you dont want to pay the extra, move on.

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Old 03-06-2013, 12:32 AM #12
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For my sale I am able to keep the prices low because customers are willing to "Gift"
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:38 AM #13
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I never get my asking price on my items so I may counter offer by saying you add fees to sweeten the deal. That way to the seller feels like they win by getting the item for a lower price and I feel like I win cause I get the amount they offered, not just a percentage of it. If then they decide they would rather gift the payment cause they are too cheap to add another 3% then that is their choice.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:19 AM #14
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My prices always include fees. However, I get buyers who ask me if I can drop the price "X" amount. I'll agree to do so if they agree to cover the fees. Typically speaking, I usually take a hit, but it's usually remedied by the covered fees.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:43 AM #15
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Quote:
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For my sale I am able to keep the prices low because customers are willing to "Gift"
Also a good point.
I mean at least this way the option is there. If they wanna save a bit and trust you sweet, if not they can pay a bit more. I mean a choice is better than no choice.
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:41 AM #16
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There is nothing inherently wrong with a seller asking a buyer to gift a payment. For one, it will keep the price of the item cheaper, so that that why the buyer will get a better deal on the item. I've gifted many payments before, and saved lots of money that way, rather than paying outrageous paypal fees. It all depends on if you trust the seller or not, I would trust most people who have tons of positive feedback. Also, this Gifting Paypal Topic was already covered here man: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3928652
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:48 AM #17
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Quote:
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There is nothing inherently wrong with a seller asking a buyer to gift a payment. For one, it will keep the price of the item cheaper, so that that why the buyer will get a better deal on the item. I've gifted many payments before, and saved lots of money that way, rather than paying outrageous paypal fees. It all depends on if you trust the seller or not, I would trust most people who have tons of positive feedback. Also, this Gifting Paypal Topic was already covered here man: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3928652


Dude, in that thread you said

Quote:
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Gifting voids insurance. No go.
Now you say its ok for sellers to ask for this and that you've done it....



Quote:
Originally Posted by aaaa1236 View Post
I cant help but notice the ones whining about feedback are the ones who have almost none. Its an excellent reference to legitimacy. If you disagree or dont want to cooperate with someone who has high feedback then buy from the guy who has 0-10 feedback and when you receive a beat up or non functional item dont complain.

Funny how you say that without knowing the whole story. I have very high feedback on ebay. I've been buying and selling online (ebay, CL, other forums) for well over 10 years now. But those are other sites and forums, so I will not post my feedback from them here to try to prove myself as others tend to do. Ive seen many links to ebay or other forum feedback profiles.


Point of the matter is, with PBN a buyers only form of protection is PP. PBN wont and cant press any legal action against a deadbeat seller. PP can, but only if you played by the rules. If you open a case with PP for a non-ebay transaction, they are going to want copies of all communication between buyer and seller. Once they see that the buyer was asked to/agreed to cover the fees, you've voided TOS and your're SOL.

If you want the fees to be included in your price, cool. Figure your fees (PP, shipping, time) into the cost and post that total as your price. Its not that hard of a concept. If people are too cheap to cover their own *** that their problem. If your price is fair, someone will buy it
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:27 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidfiretibby View Post
Dude, in that thread you said



Now you say its ok for sellers to ask for this and that you've done it....






Funny how you say that without knowing the whole story. I have very high feedback on ebay. I've been buying and selling online (ebay, CL, other forums) for well over 10 years now. But those are other sites and forums, so I will not post my feedback from them here to try to prove myself as others tend to do. Ive seen many links to ebay or other forum feedback profiles.


Point of the matter is, with PBN a buyers only form of protection is PP. PBN wont and cant press any legal action against a deadbeat seller. PP can, but only if you played by the rules. If you open a case with PP for a non-ebay transaction, they are going to want copies of all communication between buyer and seller. Once they see that the buyer was asked to/agreed to cover the fees, you've voided TOS and your're SOL.

If you want the fees to be included in your price, cool. Figure your fees (PP, shipping, time) into the cost and post that total as your price. Its not that hard of a concept. If people are too cheap to cover their own *** that their problem. If your price is fair, someone will buy it
True, I did say that, but that was more directed to the newcomers to B/S/T who don't know much about it. People who have a lot of feedback, I don't mind gifting to. I only gift to people who have a lot of feedback, otherwise I don't gift. There are instances in which it is okay. I would never gift to someone who has less than 50 feedback, or a substantial amount of negative feedback.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:59 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidfiretibby View Post
Dude, in that thread you said



Now you say its ok for sellers to ask for this and that you've done it....






Funny how you say that without knowing the whole story. I have very high feedback on ebay. I've been buying and selling online (ebay, CL, other forums) for well over 10 years now. But those are other sites and forums, so I will not post my feedback from them here to try to prove myself as others tend to do. Ive seen many links to ebay or other forum feedback profiles.


Point of the matter is, with PBN a buyers only form of protection is PP. PBN wont and cant press any legal action against a deadbeat seller. PP can, but only if you played by the rules. If you open a case with PP for a non-ebay transaction, they are going to want copies of all communication between buyer and seller. Once they see that the buyer was asked to/agreed to cover the fees, you've voided TOS and your're SOL.

If you want the fees to be included in your price, cool. Figure your fees (PP, shipping, time) into the cost and post that total as your price. Its not that hard of a concept. If people are too cheap to cover their own *** that their problem. If your price is fair, someone will buy it
I dont need the "whole story", its 100% irrelevant to this discussion. Nobody ever cares about peoples ebay feedback and typically ignore links to ebay accounts because this is not ebay. Ebay you cant avoid paying fees, which is why unless you get lucky at a private auction you dont find that many good deals, or at least the great deals to overpriced items ratio is lower than anywhere else.

Basically you just reiterated what your op said, you havent provided new insight for what you were saying.

Also keep in mind, in the same way pbn wont be be held accountable for deals done on here, they also wont regulate threads asking price or payment types.

Lastly, i think you might be surprised with how little paypal protects buyers. Non ebay transactions in which the buyer recieves an item arrives but is not in te described condition (or even working for that matter) will get NO help from paypal.
I know because the only incident i had on pbn was about 2-3 years ago. I sent a payment ($600, not gifted) to another member whi sent me his gun.

It had gouges, scratches and dents like no gun id ever seen. I air it up and it wont even cycle. I contacted paypal, explained the situation and they said since i got the item, they werent going to do anything. All they can do is make sure it arrived.

So really without going through ebay, paypals not even safe. If you have sold on CL then you will know how many scams are run through paypal. These scams screw buyers and sellers.

So to be honest, im much more inclined to gift someoe with perfect 100+ feedback than deal with someone who had 20 or less at all (although im not that likely to do either)
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:52 PM #20
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eBay Feedback means nothing on PBN. Ebay transactions are all linear and more or less scripted. PBNation transactions are all one of a kind and each one is different. PBN is much more of a personal buying experience leaving more room for error on either side there for feedback is much more than a number.

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Old 03-06-2013, 07:11 PM #21
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I think sellers should work their shipping and expenses into the price. Simply say "You give me this much money and you'll have your item sent to you."
Sellers that want to appear cheap then give you a bunch of stuff to nickle and dime you(then give you a neutral when you back out) pisses me off.

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