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Old 02-24-2013, 11:10 AM #1
WildWayz
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Alas - more Alien Invasion woes..

As you guys know, the 1st Alien Invasion 2012 I bought had a leak which I couldnt seem to fix so I sold it (it was 4th hand)... I then bought a brand new Alien Invasion and I took it out this weekend.

I was going to do a video review of it and the Shadow barrel kit but that never happened? Why? Because it would not fire.

It was suffering from massive bolt stick (spoke to another guy who works for FS Paintball in the UK, who sell them - his new marker that he picked up yesterday was doing the same and apparently you have to dry fire around 6 bottles of air through it to actually get it to work).

So I spent most of the day between games just dry firing it. Now it is at the stage where it does fire, but the 1st shot is always a dud shot ie bolt doesnt move, 2nd shot it is fine. I can't even leave it a while and shoot in game, as the 1st shot will not fire.

Dwell was increased from the default 15ms to 19ms. LPR was turned up a bit (screwed in). Still the same. When I got home, and inside it shoots 1st time every time.

Now, it was around 0C outside... so cold. My Axe shot fine every single time.

Do I really need to break it in more? Anything else anyone can suggest?

Thanks

James
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:18 PM #2
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You shouldn't need to do that break in period at all. Something isn't right.

Did you lube it up? It could be dry out of the box. Or if you used that mylacote 55 or whatever in the wrong spot you could have swollen orings lol.

Pull your bolt pin......does the bolt move back and forth freely without the ram? If not the orings may be too tight for the cold. You can try smaller ones, or oil them, or take them right off.

If the bolt is fine, try to now move the ram back and forth to see if it moves nice and smooth. If not, you have a problem there.

You aren't using an SLP tank on the invasion are you? If so, it probably won't work.

Are you sure you're turning the LPR the right way? On most aliens out(counterclockwise) is up..........and in(clockwise) is down. It may or may not be different on the invasion, I don't have one so I can't say.

Try leaving the gun outside to get cold then set it up. If you set it up indoors then go into the cold......it's not going to work. Make sure your battery is top notch. A cold battery is usually a dead battery. The voltage may be fine on a tester but the current level will drop off quite a bit.
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:23 PM #3
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Thanks MstrKey - I haven't lubed it - Jack said to just take it out and shoot it..
I tried 2 new Procell batteries too.
I'll strip it and grease the rammer and service the LPR and HPR and try it again... but you are right, it doesn't seem right.

When I pulled the bolt pin, the bolt moves nicely (I dont think there are orings on the bolt though). With it in, the rammer moves smoothly and easily.
The pressure on the bolt was as Jack said, very hard with pinky, but easier with pointer finger...
My OP was 2 shims out on my Ninja reg - so urm 550psi?

As I said, Martin from FS was there with his new Invasion and it did the same. He called Aaron @ FS who knows all things Alien, and he said that they need bedding in and to dry fire around 5-6 bottles of air through it to wear the orings in.

I'll fiddle with it more though - got a bottle full of air now Just strange how now the 1st shot fails then shoots fine... but then if I leave it for a bit, like if I don't shoot for a minute or two, the shot drops off then is fine.
Deffo feels like bolt stick... but was told not to oil the bolt...

Hmmm
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:30 AM #4
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shouldn't be bolt stick at all.. it's a poppet.. if your experiencing bolt stick, there's an issue.

Try a new battery, from a new pack, try a brand name such as duracell or energizer.

Also are you underboring a lot? if so, very small chance here, but the LPR operating pressure on the Invasion may not be high enough to push the ball all the way into the barrel thus preventing the ram from moving all the way forward and opening the valve...

make sure everything was assembled correctly, Double check the ram o-rings make sure they're not nicked or anything. if this doesnt work try shooting Jack an e-mail or a message here
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:12 AM #5
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Thanks - as mentioned, this is a brand new Alien so should be fine out of the box. I wasn't underboring - in fact, overboring as I was trying my new Shadow Barrel Kit and the paint was coming out as smaller than .680 but I only had the 685, 687, 689 and 691 backs.

When it was shooting, it was more consistent with the 689 back for some reason... and was +/-4 over the chrono (go figure!).

The manual does state that if you have 1st shot drop off, to increase the LPR until it has been broken in, then decrease it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 02:39 AM #6
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I've just serviced the HPR and LPR and checked the rammer which is still greased from factory and moving nicely. I dont think it is an oring issue as it is shooting fine when at room temp.

Anyway, going to work now so will leave the marker in the car where the outside temp is about 1C. When I get home tonight, i'll try shooting it when cold

Another thing... I put black out screws for grip screws and it looks so much nicer.. and the on/off button was hard to press, so I put two tiny bits of paper between the button and the rubber and now it turns on and off much better!
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:02 PM #7
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Got home, outside was about 4C... guess what? Wouldnt shoot at all.
Not until I manually pushed the bolt forward and let some air out... then it would shoot.

Left it a few mins, tried again... first couple of shots, no bolt movement... then a puff... then whammo would shoot again until I let it rest.

Put the bottle on the Axe which was in the boot too, shot perfectly.

I am getting fed up of this now :/

Dwell is on 19. LPR is turned in (up) and I have dry fired around 6000+shots over it, so it is broken in.

Works perfect when it is warm. Not a battery issue - I use high quality Duracell Procells. Tried 2 different ones, inc one from a new batch.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:26 PM #8
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Hmmmm. So we know it's a cold issue for sure. Jack is in California so he doesn't know our woes LOL.

Ok first thing.....take the grease out of the ram and use oil. Grease in a tight fitting, cold area may be a bit stickier than the ram can handle in the cold.

Next, swap out the ram oring with a few others of the same size until you find one that seems to be looser. Just for the colder months. If you have a polyurethane of the proper size you could try that as well.....they're a bit slicker.

Does the invasion board have an ABS setting? If so turn your dwell maybe 4 ms above stock and then adjust the abs valve open time upward until your first shot drop off disappears. Remember you may have to wait a minute or so for the abs to activate again after each test.

Does the bolt and ram move nice when its cold? I'm not sure if you tested them indoors or outdoors.

You could try to add a bit of oil to the grease you use in the regs. For cold weather you don't want thick grease. Thinner is better. Your mylacote may be a dow product, but it could also be mixed thick. Every bit helps.

Another thing that entered my mind. Does your poppet move forward and backward fairly easily(without air) when you push the bolt and ram forward by hand? Or is it sticky/hard to open? Maybe it's a tight fit in there and could use some polishing? Without air you should only feel resistance from the spring. More than that is too tight.

I don't know where a stock Invasion LPR should be set, visually. In nice weather is may run about 50 psi, but that's probably going to be way too low in that type of cold. I would expect you'd need to run at least a full turn higher than normal. Unless of course your ABS and other changes from above totally fix your issue.

Playing around the freezing point is tough on a lot of guns. You just need to find that one spot to tweek. Once you do you'll be the Alien hero in your area lol. Remember the invasion isn't built to the higher tolerances like the independence is.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:39 PM #9
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this does not sound right

If the bolt move freely (while detached from the ram) then the bolt is not the problem. If the ram moves freely, than the ram is not the issue.

Sounds like a dwell issue! check that it is at 12-15ms and not 6ms (THEY ARE MEANT FOR THE MARQ!!!)

DWELL DWELL DWELL
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:41 AM #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
Hmmmm. So we know it's a cold issue for sure. Jack is in California so he doesn't know our woes LOL.

Ok first thing.....take the grease out of the ram and use oil. Grease in a tight fitting, cold area may be a bit stickier than the ram can handle in the cold.

Next, swap out the ram oring with a few others of the same size until you find one that seems to be looser. Just for the colder months. If you have a polyurethane of the proper size you could try that as well.....they're a bit slicker.

Does the invasion board have an ABS setting? If so turn your dwell maybe 4 ms above stock and then adjust the abs valve open time upward until your first shot drop off disappears. Remember you may have to wait a minute or so for the abs to activate again after each test.

Does the bolt and ram move nice when its cold? I'm not sure if you tested them indoors or outdoors.

You could try to add a bit of oil to the grease you use in the regs. For cold weather you don't want thick grease. Thinner is better. Your mylacote may be a dow product, but it could also be mixed thick. Every bit helps.

Another thing that entered my mind. Does your poppet move forward and backward fairly easily(without air) when you push the bolt and ram forward by hand? Or is it sticky/hard to open? Maybe it's a tight fit in there and could use some polishing? Without air you should only feel resistance from the spring. More than that is too tight.

I don't know where a stock Invasion LPR should be set, visually. In nice weather is may run about 50 psi, but that's probably going to be way too low in that type of cold. I would expect you'd need to run at least a full turn higher than normal. Unless of course your ABS and other changes from above totally fix your issue.

Playing around the freezing point is tough on a lot of guns. You just need to find that one spot to tweek. Once you do you'll be the Alien hero in your area lol. Remember the invasion isn't built to the higher tolerances like the independence is.
Hi - thanks for the reply. There is no ABS on the Alien. Jack advised to drop the dwell down and increase the LPR - it'll be more kicky, but it will shoot through it and shouldnt have the issue.

The strange thing is, it FEELS right when doing the index/pinkie test. Jack said to change out the 011/012 ram and ram housing orings. I haven't done that yet, simply because I checked them and they move very easily.

What I have done this morning before work, was oil the rammer and I think it feels a bit slicker. On the parts that need grease, i've used MonkeyPoo as it is thinner than DOW33.

I will leave it in the car tonight when I am at work, and try again once it turns cold. If it fails, the orings in the ram and ram housing will be changed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by firefoxx04 View Post
this does not sound right

If the bolt move freely (while detached from the ram) then the bolt is not the problem. If the ram moves freely, than the ram is not the issue.

Sounds like a dwell issue! check that it is at 12-15ms and not 6ms (THEY ARE MEANT FOR THE MARQ!!!)

DWELL DWELL DWELL
Not a dwell issue - had it running at 20 blinks... EGOs had dwell issues at the weekend which I fixed by bumping the dwell up 2ms
I think maybe tight orings + cold...


Thanks guys!

James
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:22 AM #11
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what board? If its the virtue, 20 blinks is 10ms. I know my indy will run at 10 but they call for 12-15.


oil on the ram shouldnt cause this to happen but youl find grease is a little smoother on the ram. The bolt just needs to be stay clean, maybe some try flow but even that is not required. Those are the only two moving parts.

This is where knowing an exact LPR pressure would be helpful.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:42 AM #12
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It's the Hatred board... 16 blinks is 16ms...

Just been speaking to Aaron @ FS. He thinks it could be the solenoid - in that the grease in there is old and causing it to stick. The Aliens he is selling were imported about 6-8mo ago, and have the latest parts in them - but thinks that the grease could have become thick.

He's asked me to test the marker tonight with the oil on the rammer... then to change the 011 and 012 incase it is a bad batch of orings (even though it is moving smoothly).

Failing that, he is going to get one of the other Aliens he has in stock and check the grease in the solenoid and compare it to his own Alien which doesnt suffer this problem.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:13 AM #13
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is the gun still leaking?
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:14 AM #14
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Quote:
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is the gun still leaking?
Just to confuse you.... that was the other gun
The one I sold to another Alien enthusiast who wanted to fix it up.

This marker is a brand new one
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:05 PM #15
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Brand new, no leaks. Just has bolt/ram stick issues? If the lpr is set right, dwell set right, ram fitment (orings) is smooth and the battery is fresh.. id say its a noid issue. I have not had this happen with my Aliens but I have had it happen to other guns in the past.

My indy is very broken in. It does not seem to care where i put the dwell or lpr pressure. It never sticks. You could use wheel bearing grease on the damn ram and it would still function. (i dont recommend this )
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:52 PM #16
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http://youtu.be/asE_oLrUAvk

That is a video of the problem.
And it is 8c in the car.

Now I have replaced the 011 and 012 orings on the rammer and ram housing but I forgot to put the back cap on
So now I'll leave it in the boot until it goes cold again and retry

Here is the video where it was working but gun not cold.. Did leak for a few seconds then fine:
http://youtu.be/lmDu_9dtYcA


After an hour, and the temp dropped to around 2-3C, I tried it again - still got bolt stick - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UAFvZyeYzI

So this is with oil on the rammer, changed orings on the ram and ram housing.

Only thing left was the suggestion from Aaron @ FS Paintball that it could actually be the solenoid sticking due to the grease on it...
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Last edited by WildWayz : 02-27-2013 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:19 PM #17
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Well ultimately, in the cold usually the noids always have problems. They have very tight tolerences inside and any amount of drag can slow them down. Hence the need for a longer dwell in the cold on every gun really.

Lubing your ram with oil could possibly help break up any dry grease in the noid after a bit of time. One of the reasons I always use oil is it keeps the noids cleaner. Most poppet guns require oil in the ram for the same reason, although truth be told they usually feel smoother with grease. Kind of weird. lol.

Are the invasion noids the same SMC as the indy noids? If so I doubt it's the noids. I'd go back to LPR like jack said. You just need more air pressure in the cold.......no ifs ands or buts. It won't be as smooth but it will work. In fact running a higher LPR is probably better for breaking the gun in anyway.

You've done just about everything else that can be done at this point. You guys need an indoor
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:09 PM #18
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Im positive the cold has nothing to do with whats happening. Ive rocked my indy in below freezing temps, not a hint of bolt stick. The valve isnt opening all the way. Id like to see what the lpr pressure is. Hell, both my luxes have not had much trouble in 20-25* F temps this winter.

It sounds like way to little dwell, or way to little lpr. Worst case, the noid is failing.

Oil on the ram, not a good idea.. not a bad idea but grease will work better and grease IS NOT your problem. That leak you had after changing orings and oiling the ram can happen until you cycle a few times (just like you did) to get it sealed. Grease tends to work better and keep the orings happy.


Is your poppet spring in place correctly? ive never torn an indy down but if its possible for that spring to bind, it could prevent the ram from opening the poppet all the way.


If you dont mind, try finding out what your lpr pressure is (there is a guide for this in the manual)
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:15 AM #19
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I couldn't see how to work out the LPR pressure, but the bolt is easy to push with my index finger and near impossible with my pinkie.
It looks about a turn in from flush on the LPR.

Other people have said how they can literally shoot their Invasions without any problems in any temp without changing settings.

I can certainly re-lube the rammer - got DOW33, MonkeyPoo and DOW55. I know, not DOW55, but DOW33 should be fine.

The poppet spring is in place fine - fits into the valve body.

It's so strange. It has Aaron @ FS stumped, although there is another one with a similar issue (bolt stick) but his is smashing paint tho.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:50 AM #20
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Righto - rammer is back to having some grease on it instead of the oil.
Moves nice and slick still.

I've left the marker in the boot of the car again whilst I am at work, so it gets nice and cold.

Dwell has been upped to 20ms, as per the manual. LPR is set to about the same as when it came from the factory.

We'll see how it is tonight.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:20 AM #21
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Riiiiiiiight

Went out to the car whilst on a break and it is 8.5C outside. The boot of the car felt colder, around 3C or so. The marker was cold too.
I was advised to turn the dwell up to 25ms and to retry, so I set the dwell to 25ms and tried to shoot the marker.
It took 12 trigger pulls for the gun to cycle properly. 11th pull was the 1st time the bolt tried to move and the 12th was fine.
I put it back in the boot to 'cool down'.

Now the next thing is to...
Set dwell to 18ms. Increase the HPR and decrease the LPR... so basically put a higher pressure in the HPR so when it cools down, there is still a high amount of air in the chamber to function.
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