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Old 02-28-2013, 06:36 AM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spracks21 View Post
Found an even better liz warren discussion video on too big to fail. I highly highly recommend everyone take the time to watch it. It's a real interesting listen.]
A word to word to the wise.

Don't use that nut job Grannie Warren in your arguments. I didn't think it was possible to be more of a phony than "camera shy Kerry"... She proved me wrong.

I do agree with you though, we are getting hosed in the middle class relative to other classes. It's a culture thing though so I don't see any change coming. We're the golden goose and taken for granted, se we'll never be represented. Our culture is very stable though so I don't complain about it too much. There are worse places to be, and the better ones won't let me in. I'll get out of here when it's time to retire. My money will go much further elsewhere.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:08 AM #86
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Hey man, don't knock the most transparent administration in the history of the office.
It's cool dude, they are non partisan. So what if they still run Obama's twitter.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:19 AM #87
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It seems you want lay the blame of inequality at the feet of "all capitalistic markets," yet the countries you hold up to the ideal of equality, Sweden and Japan, are both countries that enjoy the fruits of capitalism and free-enterprise. To suggest that these two countries aren't "capitalistic markets" is stretching reality.

Even your remedies for inequality are not incompatible with free-market economies. We have taxes and we still have cultural forces at play that provide some balance.



How is this question germaine? Even if there has been a rise in income inequality in the past 60 years, why should this concern us if over that time our standard of living has increased as a population? I'm less concerned about proportionality and perfect equality than I am about being able to enjoy a high standard of living. The fact is that America has one of the highest standards of living in the world and it's due to the fact that we do see virtue in free-enterprise and capitalism, though I sometimes think the left wishes it otherwise.

This sounds like a pity party without anyone to pity.
Oh for ****s sake are you arguing with your imaginary friend or something? no one ever suggested communist style income equality. He was suggesting trying to put controls on the system to keep income inequality within acceptable limits because otherwise it seems like the natural tendency of a capitalistic market is to perpetually concentrate wealth upwards and regardless of your moral bull**** about people deserving to be poor its unsustainable for the economy to continually drain wealth from middle and lower classes who spend a higher percentage of their income.

Of course Sweden and Japan are capitalistic markets, no one suggested they weren't, he expressly ****ing pointed out to you that they were capitalistic markets because he was trying to show you he wasn't talking about bringing down the system or communism or some bull**** that you keep trying really hard to pretend that people are suggesting. North Korea? are ****ing kidding me? He's talking about **** like having a higher minimum wage and you're bringing up North Korea like its relevant to anything? As a counterpoint I'd like to point out that you shouldn't rape people and Hitler was not a nice man, what does that have to do with anything? I don't know, probably more then ****ing North Korea though.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:26 AM #88
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I think Snake's assessment was rather clear, but just in case, I will draw out my argument as clearly as I can.

1) In a capitalistic market, money tends to concentrate at the top. This can be seen in every capitalistic country in history that I am aware of.
2) This is a very bad thing for both economics and social well-being of all citizens (poor and rich).
3) Successful capitalistic countries as those that counteract this effect with either a high tax rate on the rich or through cultural means. For example, Japan simply pays their employees at a much more equalized rate which I believe to be due to their cultural notions of honor and duty.
4) Therefore, I am advocating that the USA (which has one of the worst cases of income inequality) should follow suit and turn towards policies that reinforce a more stable economic structure.

---

To explicitly clear up your misreadings:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seahawk6060 View Post
It seems you want lay the blame of inequality at the feet of "all capitalistic markets," yet the countries you hold up to the ideal of equality, Sweden and Japan, are both countries that enjoy the fruits of capitalism and free-enterprise. To suggest that these two countries aren't "capitalistic markets" is stretching reality.
I never implied that Japan or Sweden weren't capitalistic. In fact, I did the opposite as it is necessary that they are capitalistic for my argument to follow. To be completely clear: Japan and Sweden are both examples of capitalistic counties who do a good job of counteracting the this "upward force" (each with their own means).

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Even your remedies for inequality are not incompatible with free-market economies. We have taxes and we still have cultural forces at play that provide some balance.
I never said we don't have taxes and cultural forces. I am arguing for more. Also, note that simply taxing is not the solution. Taxing with the purpose of counteracting the natural accumulation of wealth at the top is my solution. Obviously, this can be done several different ways.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:42 AM #89
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Idea:

Instead of increasing taxes on the highest earners, they must instead distribute higher incomes to their staff in proportion to their profits. This does not mean paying each employee the same, but it means raising each according to the fruits of the company to the fruits of individual labor. A low level worker is not to be compensated on par with his manager. There ought to be some sense of profit sharing reflected in wages.

Civil servants ought to be compensated such as it was in Prussia: relatively low income, but high in prestige.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:31 PM #90
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Maybe it can look something like this:

Distribution of 100$ across this population of 6.

1 = 25$ (1/4)
2 = 18.75$ each (3/8)
3 = 12.5$ each (3/8)

1=Owner
2=Management
3=Worker

Those proportions are fixed and grow with a higher pot.

If you try to solve income disparity through taxes, that money gets lost in administrative costs through the many layers of bureaucracy.

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Old 02-28-2013, 12:42 PM #91
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I would have to think about this more, but at first glance it seems to be a viable option. It is simply a structuralization of what I mean by cultural counterbalancing.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:07 PM #92
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Angry

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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I would have to think about this more, but at first glance it seems to be a viable option. It is simply a structuralization of what I mean by cultural counterbalancing.
I see it this way, even in the perfect world where money isn't lost on administrative costs and hand jobs, the distribution will be in services, not pockets. Well, not the pockets of others, but the pockets of those who build and maintain these services. Granted, all have access to these public services, in an ideal environment, but I think somewhere along the way this obfuscates the original intent behind redistributive taxes.

If you choose to place this newly found income into pockets, you enter into the highly moralized debate of precisely who's pockets we are filling.

Also. Ignore that little angry face. I have no idea how it got there.

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:26 PM #93
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I was so confused why you were angry with me. Lol.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:42 PM #94
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Yeah sorry about that.

Anyway, I'd rather agree to a percentage rather than a rate. The downside however is that I may experience a lower pay due to rough times, yet in either case I have far more incentive to do good work. Everyone at every level has more incentive to do good work. Not to mention this reflects the actual costs of production so you don't have artificially inflated standards of living which are driving up those costs.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:44 PM #95
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So how do you propose that be instituted?
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:07 PM #96
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So how do you propose that be instituted?
No idea. Thought of it just a little bit before I typed it out. I'll leave it up to the States.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:27 PM #97
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A word to word to the wise.

Don't use that nut job Grannie Warren in your arguments. I didn't think it was possible to be more of a phony than "camera shy Kerry"... She proved me wrong.

I do agree with you though, we are getting hosed in the middle class relative to other classes. It's a culture thing though so I don't see any change coming. We're the golden goose and taken for granted, se we'll never be represented. Our culture is very stable though so I don't complain about it too much. There are worse places to be, and the better ones won't let me in. I'll get out of here when it's time to retire. My money will go much further elsewhere.
What makes you say that? I haven't seen anything from her to suggest she is less than genuine, but am open to being wrong there. I haven't looked into her on any other issue really, but seeing her in action at the bank hearings has impressed me quite a bit.

But the main point of me posting those two videos was not for her glory, but rather to show just how hesitant our officials are to take and Big Bank to trial. So hopefully I didn't turn away too many people by dropping her name..

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Idea:

Instead of increasing taxes on the highest earners, they must instead distribute higher incomes to their staff in proportion to their profits. This does not mean paying each employee the same, but it means raising each according to the fruits of the company to the fruits of individual labor. A low level worker is not to be compensated on par with his manager. There ought to be some sense of profit sharing reflected in wages.

Civil servants ought to be compensated such as it was in Prussia: relatively low income, but high in prestige.
I actually like this idea quite a bit, but I doubt the right would let it fly. Of course I'd have to research the idea a bit more, and leave it open to scrutiny by more knowledgeable minds than mine, before I could fully support it.

Sort of on that same note, when it comes to minimum wage, I would like to see it tied to the areas average cost of living. I like that idea more than just a flat number for all states, like $9. But again, that's just one other idea for this issue.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:35 PM #98
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Why wouldn't the right like the idea?

Minimum wage hurts workers more than it helps them. Too high and you drive business out of the country, too low and you punish the worker. Get rid of it since it will never account for the true value of labor or its fruits.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:47 PM #99
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Why wouldn't the right like the idea?

Minimum wage hurts workers more than it helps them. Too high and you drive business out of the country, too low and you punish the worker. Get rid of it since it will never account for the true value of labor or its fruits.
Your idea may end up forcing business owners to pay workers more than they would have normally. It in effect forces them to pay a minimum wage at each level of worker. It also may limit the personal profits of the CEO or owner. Also, the right just doesn't seem to like change.

And how would this work for non profit agencies? Or would this only be a model for for-profit private sector companies?

And we'll just have to disagree on the minimum wage issue.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:50 PM #100
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It doesn't force a minimum wage but a contractually agreed upon percentage. Ones earnings wouldn't really be consistent. Still though I don't understand the connection to the right. To say that the right does not like change is asinine, it does not like left philosophy and any change towards the left is going to be rejected. I expect the inverse to be true for Left.

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Old 02-28-2013, 02:55 PM #101
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What makes you say that? I haven't seen anything from her to suggest she is less than genuine, but am open to being wrong there. I haven't looked into her on any other issue really, but seeing her in action at the bank hearings has impressed me quite a bit.

But the main point of me posting those two videos was not for her glory, but rather to show just how hesitant our officials are to take and Big Bank to trial. So hopefully I didn't turn away too many people by dropping her name..
If you followed her recent election you would see what i mean (I had to because I live there). It's kind of like using A video of Jessie Jackson to back up your point. Just for starters, she misrepresented herself as a Native American.

I understand why you posted them. I hope I'm wrong and she nails the big banks to the wall. I'm not holding my breath though. I would love it if they were antitrusted down into small banks again. That's what was best for the consumer.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:14 PM #102
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
It doesn't force a minimum wage but a contractually agreed upon percentage. Ones earnings wouldn't really be consistent. Still though I don't understand the connection to the right. To say that the right does not like change is asinine, it does not like left philosophy and any change towards the left is going to be rejected. I expect the inverse to be true for Left.
Fair enough on the change point, I retract it. But, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you suggesting a legal obligation to a set wage for companies? The government would be telling owners what they had to pay their employees? Or are you just suggesting something more along the lines of a stock option, in addition to their salary/wage?

And science guy, I didn't follow her race very close, but the native American thing I don't really find to be that big of a wrong doing. And isn't she like 1/8th Cherokee of something (Hardly a significant amount, I agree)? Or was that completely bull**** all together?

In any case though, I didn't mean to hold her up as a champion in this thread. But these recent videos of her in action, as a freshman, have impressed me quite a bit, and make me think she may actually do significant work towards "nailing the big banks to the wall." But we'll see I suppose.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:45 PM #103
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It was complete BS and the natives were upset about it.
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Old 02-28-2013, 04:14 PM #104
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Implementation is another topic at this point. I feel the best answer is implementation on a cultural level, which allows the concept to be fluid and dynamic. It is also the method which requires the most out of the citizens as they must be self policing.

The next best method is local and state government. Citizens establish their own local bodies which are tasked with establishing and policing a standard according to what the community has decided is the correct distribution. A state level agency is then established to watch over the local agencies. The state does not itself implement or set standards or policy. Its only function is to ensure the local bodies abide by their own rules. This option is slightly more rigid and alleviates some responsibility from the citizen.

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Old 02-28-2013, 04:39 PM #105
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Fair enough on the change point, I retract it. But, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you suggesting a legal obligation to a set wage for companies? The government would be telling owners what they had to pay their employees? Or are you just suggesting something more along the lines of a stock option, in addition to their salary/wage?

And science guy, I didn't follow her race very close, but the native American thing I don't really find to be that big of a wrong doing. And isn't she like 1/8th Cherokee of something (Hardly a significant amount, I agree)? Or was that completely bull**** all together?

In any case though, I didn't mean to hold her up as a champion in this thread. But these recent videos of her in action, as a freshman, have impressed me quite a bit, and make me think she may actually do significant work towards "nailing the big banks to the wall." But we'll see I suppose.
What I am proposing looks like this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Maybe it can look something like this:

Distribution of 100$ across this population of 6.

1 = 25$ (1/4)
2 = 18.75$ each (3/8)
3 = 12.5$ each (3/8)

1=Owner
2=Management
3=Worker
Everyone gets a different fraction of the pie. This is determined by the duties and responsibilities of each tier. They increase as you climb up the ladder and are rewarded thusly, with a large slice of the pie. Setting a minimum wage is not what I'm looking to do because that says, I always get at least this much pie, no matter how big it is.

This is why that is bad. The pie is 100 dollars, minimum wage is 12.50. Sounds pretty good. The pie then becomes 250 dollars, my wage is still 12.50. Whether or not I get a larger piece is up to my employer.

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