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Old 02-23-2013, 10:33 PM #22
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Because that's where jobs are available. At least for some job markets.
Meh, I drive 50 miles one direction every day of the week to get to my office. I know people that cross mountains in Washington state to get to Puget Sound to work.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:08 PM #23
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Meh, I drive 50 miles one direction every day of the week to get to my office. I know people that cross mountains in Washington state to get to Puget Sound to work.
You expect low income workers to drive 100 miles round trip per day to work. Gas costs? Unreliable transportation (100 miles a day can do wear to a beat up old car)?
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:47 AM #24
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There are houses with cathedral ceilings, stucco roof, screened in patio with lots of land for $60,000 and no HOA. For the same house you would pay $350,000 and an asinine $1000 HOA fee to live in near a city. Work smarter not harder. Get out of debt, live within your means, and start investing. I say this currently making $22,000 a year. I would love to drive 50 miles to get to work with a nice house, it's just that the gas prices are getting higher. I'm trying to buy a house in such a way that my mortgage isn't over $400 a month. Unfortunately because these foreign buyers and financial companies are buying up the market, the housing market is rising again. Housing was almost reachable for the homeless 6 months ago. I tried to get a $36,000 house which would make my mortgage $150 a month, but no bank would loan me the money. The lowest they would loan me was $50000.

At $150 mortgage a month, my house could look like a garbage can, yet I would be happy. Why? Because I am damn free to do anything I want. I drove through a Miami ghetto to get to my bro's house. The houses in the ghetto with the lexus, mercedes, and porsches understand how to live. Either that or they are druglords. I bet those cars are paid off.

I remember playing the game of life. Everyone who knew how to play that game, wanted to get the ghetto house card. Because there was less taxes and insurance to pay, you had a higher possibility of winning in the end.



If you wanted a better house in that game, all you would be doing is buying a card that looks better than the other card.

Warren Buffet has a true rags to riches story and he doesn't have a super mansion.


He bought this house for $31,500. No doubt it has been remodeled since then.

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:55 AM #25
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$31,000 in 1958 or $250,000 in today's money and it's 6,000+ sqft and valued at over $700,000 now. Hardly a paragon of svelte and sensible living when the average wage was ~$4,700 and average home prices were $12,000 at the time. It's like buying a $400,000 home in ****ing Omaha, Nebraska BFE where average home prices are ~$140,000.

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You expect low income workers to drive 100 miles round trip per day to work. Gas costs? Unreliable transportation (100 miles a day can do wear to a beat up old car)?
It works for me, therefore it should work for everyone else.
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Old 02-24-2013, 12:03 PM #26
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Originally Posted by Subterfuge View Post

I remember playing the game of life. Everyone who knew how to play that game, wanted to get the ghetto house card. Because there was less taxes and insurance to pay, you had a higher possibility of winning in the end.



If you wanted a better house in that game, all you would be doing is buying a card that looks better than the other card.
I literally laughed out loud to this one. Thanks for that.
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:17 AM #27
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Old 02-25-2013, 03:52 PM #28
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Seahawk, would you still consider income inequality a good thing if the top 1% of earners controlled say 90% of all wealth in the US? Do you think that it would still even be possible for any of the 99% at that point to prosper?

Growing income inequality leads to the richest few being able to rig the system in order for them to maximize their profits, on the backs of the rest of us. Everything is for the most part just fine right now, but seeing the rapid rate at which income disparity is increasing, unless some kind of action is taking, we will eventually find ourselves in an absolute plutocracy.

We're already too terrified to take any of the big banks to trial for their unethical practices. We also bail them out when they are purposefully reckless with OUR money, and they know this.

Add the fact that corporations are now people, and money is speech, it seems things are only accelerating on the income inequality/plutocracy front.

And when most of us endure recessions, you think the wealthiest corporations are hurting with us? Hell no. In fact, it likely makes things easier for them. When unemployment is high, and everyone feels lucky just to have any kind of job, they can treat these people like the gum on the boots they are, and subject them to essentially whatever work conditions and insufficient financing they wish, knowing that they can always find some desperate schlub to replace you with.

I'm not saying we all need to hold hands or sit around drum circles. But I don't see how anyone can deny this trend as a problem all together. Seahawk, it seems your reason for supporting income inequality is based on trickle down economics. That if the wealthiest of us are prospering, it will be good for the unwealthy too. That as long as we are willing to put the time and effort in, we too can become wealthy. But this isn't always inherently true, and is becoming less and less possible every passing decade. The problem is, more and more money is getting collected at the top, in ways that don't benefit the rest of us. When this occurs, the money doesn't clone itself so that we can get some too. It stays with the wealthy at the top, who are of course only interested in turning it into more for themselves. Fewer and fewer will continue to drip down to the rest of us to the point where even the most well educated and hard working among us will feel the desperation the wealthy desire us to feel, giving them all the leverage over us in the world.

Pretty good write up on trickle down, if you don't refuse to read it based on the Karl Marx tag. Just take a quick browse and see if trickle down is something good for you, good for the poor, or good for the US economy.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/11...metic-and-you/

I'm actually in a bit of a hurry right now, and didn't mean to type this much, but I'll go back later and address more specific points raised.

Meanwhile, I would like for more people to state whether they think rapidly growing income inequality is a problem in their opinion, to what degree it is, and what they think should be done. Thanks.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:12 PM #29
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I'm confused, are you talking about income inequality or are you talking about the disparity between upper class middle class and lower class incomes?

Because, we've always had income inequality, that's one of those it either is or it isn't kind of deals. Your point is not clear. Growing inequality makes no sense.
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:22 PM #30
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I'm confused, are you talking about income inequality or are you talking about the disparity between upper class middle class and lower class incomes?

Because, we've always had income inequality, that's one of those it either is or it isn't kind of deals. Your point is not clear. Growing inequality makes no sense.
Both, but mostly the concentration of wealth at the top, and shrinking number of people in the middle class.

And I'm really just talking out loud, hoping to spark discussion. Do you see any potential issues with the trend posted in my OP, if allowed to continue at the current rate?
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:32 PM #31
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We're already too terrified to take any of the big banks to trial for their unethical practices. We also bail them out when they are purposefully reckless with OUR money, and they know this.
You were in favor of this, weren't you?

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will feel the desperation the wealthy desire us to feel,
This is important. Do you truly feel the wealthy desire that we feel desperation?
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:13 PM #32
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Both, but mostly the concentration of wealth at the top, and shrinking number of people in the middle class.

And I'm really just talking out loud, hoping to spark discussion. Do you see any potential issues with the trend posted in my OP, if allowed to continue at the current rate?
I believe very strongly in divisions of class. Not necessarily by wealth but by ability. Believe is the wrong word. I know divisions of class exist. Income just so happens to be our method of division. Am I interested in leveling out incomes across the board? No.

No I'm not terribly concerned with the trend. The practices are not sustainable.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:14 PM #33
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I believe very strongly in divisions of class. Not necessarily by wealth but by ability. Believe is the wrong word. I know divisions of class exist. Income just so happens to be our method of division. Am I interested in leveling out incomes across the board? No.

No I'm not terribly concerned with the trend. The practices are not sustainable.
How do you mean not sustainable? What will occur before, during, and after the point of instability being reached? Shouldn't we be working towards a more sustainable model, before reaching the fall out?
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:34 PM #34
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You were in favor of this, weren't you?



This is important. Do you truly feel the wealthy desire that we feel desperation?
Not in a malicious apocalyptic way, but in a selfish and greedy way, yes, desperate workers will put up with more, work for less, and can be replaced by other desperate workers. I'm not referring to your typical small business owner, but the mega rich who are becoming more and more in control of the shape of our nation. What do they care of the common man? Surely you don't think they would consider the well being of a measly worker bee over their next quarterly profit, do you?

High unemployment and desperate times for workers mean that the jobs that the rich actually "trickle down" to us are much more coveted and willing to be taken for less. A good thing for major corps.

And I see that when we bailed the banks out, it was likely the right call in the interest of saving middle and lower class citizens. Not bailing them out would hurt the common man. Having said that, we need to acknowledge that the banks know this, and find a way out of this hostage situation. I would also suggest breaking up the big banks, but I'm sure you disagree with me there. So what would you suggest?
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:42 PM #35
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How do you mean not sustainable? What will occur before, during, and after the point of instability being reached? Shouldn't we be working towards a more sustainable model, before reaching the fall out?
Well think about it. The glory days of the American empire are behind us. There goes tribute that gutted the actual productive side of the nation. The tribute rose our standard of living much higher than the costs of production allow for. Enter outsourcing.

Most big money is made gaming the economy through banking and investment. How long do you think we can keep shuffling paper and electronic code around until something gives us a good nudge?

Any economic system that operates on growth is bound to have hiccups and failure. What ponzi scheme is inherently sustainable? If you were ever wondering why immigrants bolster the economy, there's your answer. You are born, sucked dry for your labor, rinse and repeat.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:59 PM #36
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Well think about it. The glory days of the American empire are behind us. There goes tribute that gutted the actual productive side of the nation. The tribute rose our standard of living much higher than the costs of production allow for. Enter outsourcing.

Most big money is made gaming the economy through banking and investment. How long do you think we can keep shuffling paper and electronic code around until something gives us a good nudge?

Any economic system that operates on growth is bound to have hiccups and failure. What ponzi scheme is inherently sustainable? If you were ever wondering why immigrants bolster the economy, there's your answer. You are born, sucked dry for your labor, rinse and repeat.
So are we just ****ed, and can do nothing about it (By we, I mean the common citizen in the years to come if the trend continued on it's accelerated path)? Is there a solution? What do you think will be the final tipping point?

And now I'm confused. It seems you agree that this trend will lead to an economic fallout (Being that it is unsustainable), yet you're not worried about stopping the trend. Is economic fallout not a bad thing, or am I way off the mark here? Sorry if I misread the last post, I don't think I'm understanding you perfectly.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:33 PM #37
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Seahawk, would you still consider income inequality a good thing if the top 1% of earners controlled say 90% of all wealth in the US?
No. That was the whole point of my stating, "it might become a real problem in the future." I do concede that too much power residing with any specific group or individual isn't a good thing for a population that enjoys liberty and self-determination.

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Growing income inequality leads to the richest few being able to rig the system in order for them to maximize their profits, on the backs of the rest of us...terrified to take any of the big banks to trial...corporations are now people, and money is speech...you think the wealthiest corporations are hurting with us?...they can treat these people like the gum on the boots they are...I don't see how anyone can deny this trend as a problem all together.
It might be easier for me to understand your point if I thought that banks and corporations were conspiring to destroy the middle class. I just don't see it. You're asking me to accept a premise that sounds more like a conspiratorial fantasy than objective fact. Just because the trend exists, doesn't mean that there's some sort of evil oligarchy out there planning the destruction of planet earth. We can talk about the trend and the reasons for it, but I'm not seeing how the trend has manifested itself in a way that requires immediate action. Frankly, I'm glad the banks were there to provide me the capital I needed to buy my house. I make my payments on time and hold up my end of the bargain, allowing me to provide a nice home for my family. Banks don't scare me. American corporations are able to provide me with an unlimited array of goods and services at reasonable cost. "Greedy" corporations don't scare me. What scares me is a government that slowly encroaches on my life, liberty, and property - the very things that the government was established to protect. I don't fear banks and corporations as much as I do reckless and stupid politicians, which don't seem to be in short supply.

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...the money doesn't clone itself so that we can get some too. It stays with the wealthy at the top,...
You make it sound like the economy is a zero-sum game. According to this principle, when people at the top make a dollar, it necessarily means that it was taken from someone less fortunate. You make it sound like there is no such thing as wealth generation. The fact is that the wealthy can get richer and, at the same time, all of us can enjoy a higher standard of living. But, in order for this to happen, you need a government that encourages and fosters economic growth, not one that demonizes success and rewards the indolent.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:18 AM #38
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So are we just ****ed, and can do nothing about it (By we, I mean the common citizen in the years to come if the trend continued on it's accelerated path)? Is there a solution? What do you think will be the final tipping point?

And now I'm confused. It seems you agree that this trend will lead to an economic fallout (Being that it is unsustainable), yet you're not worried about stopping the trend. Is economic fallout not a bad thing, or am I way off the mark here? Sorry if I misread the last post, I don't think I'm understanding you perfectly.
The common citizen can do much. However his lifestyle hasn't taken a large enough hit to motivate him to act.

I think society puts more effort into denial of our position, how we got here and how we can maintain the "good times" than it does being honest with itself.

I'm not worried because there are many ways that things can happen that aren't going to end up in mad max post apocalypto.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:31 AM #39
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Not suggesting a conspiracy, just a high degree of greed that is driving this trend. I get that they are just playing the economic game, which is why I seek to change the rules and settings of this game. The system is what needs changing.

And you recognize that if this trend continues at it's current rate, there will be major problems in the future....so shouldn't we aim to rectify the issue BEFORE it becomes catastrophic? Isn't that essentially the argument for tackling the deficit now rather than later?

Banks can still provide their services without being so enormous that their consumers are completely at their mercy (If left unregulated adequately)

This chart illustrates this point fairly well. Too big to fail should not be an acceptable status quo. I should think we could all agree on that point at least.
http://www.motherjones.com/files/ima...eory-chart.jpg

As for the largest corporations, do you see any potential issue with them using their great wealth to influence their profit interests in elections, as well as in regards to legislation? Isn't that the typical problem for breeding crooked/dishonest politicians? Money in Washington?

And the "money not cloning itself" was stated relating to the tendency for the mega rich to take their extra wealth (Through their special tax breaks and exemptions) and investing it in places where the capital only benefits them and their fellow rich buddies. They can also use the money to manipulate the stock market, also in an effort to acquire further wealth for them and their buddies.

It's the obvious flaw with Trickle down economics. The money ends up being concentrated more and more at the top. Give the link I posted earlier a read if you require any more in depth critiquing of the problems with trickle down theory.

Lastly, our government does encourage economic growth and prosperity. Just likely not your same vision of how to go about it. Which is fine, we can discuss and debate different ideas, but crying out, "class warfare" and saying that the president hates success is just stupid. I personally see this president as someone more concerned with putting priority in helping those who suffered most in the previous recession, as opposed to those who saw their quarterly profits continue to rise during that same time period. But I guess it's all about how people want to see things, I suppose.

Thanks for your posts so far, and I assure you I am not intentionally painting rich people as demonic conspirators hell bent on taking over America. I do consider this to be a serious concern, however, so I can see how my rhetoric might come off in the manner you described. I will tell you though that I feel zero pity for these people, who play by different rules than the rest of us, for their gripes and opposition to legislation that threatens their personal bonuses and record profits. You don't pity the American poor (We clearly have the best poor people), and I do not pity the mega rich. Both groups have hard workers, and lazy entitled pricks. So to each their own, I guess.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:42 AM #40
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The common citizen can do much. However his lifestyle hasn't taken a large enough hit to motivate him to act.

I think society puts more effort into denial of our position, how we got here and how we can maintain the "good times" than it does being honest with itself.

I'm not worried because there are many ways that things can happen that aren't going to end up in mad max post apocalypto.
By, "can do much" I assume you mean, if adequately motivated, personally (Work hard, educate yourself, never give up). Which is what Seahawk had said. I'm asking what do we do once these things begin to be less and less effective at achieving success. And more to the real point, the more difficult it becomes to make a sufficient living, and the more rigged the game gets for those at the top, the weaker our economy will get. A smaller collection of people in the middle class to pay taxes, means less government spending and investment. And while hardcore conservatives may like the sound of this, most Americans enjoy things like roads, bridges, public service officials, a strong military, scientific research, medicare, and social security.

If the trend does continue accelerating at the present rate, what are some of these many ways that things can happen to avoid economic fallout? Because while a mad max style future (Hey, it could be fun for awhile) may not be likely, a plutocratic America is a very real possibility.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:58 AM #41
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You expect low income workers to drive 100 miles round trip per day to work. Gas costs? Unreliable transportation (100 miles a day can do wear to a beat up old car)?
A relatively cheap, reliable, 10 year old car with 160k miles, that can get up to 57 miles per gallon, was purchased by me for roughly $9000. It runs on diesel, and if I feel like it I can use WVO and make everyone around me hungry for fried chicken or french fries.

I looked at a problem, and came up with a viable solution.

That is my dose of anecdotal evidence for the day, even if we are playing a game of "what if".
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:01 AM #42
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You paid $9k for a 10 year old car with 160K miles on it? You can almost buy a new one for that price and have a warranty and skip paying the extra for diesel.
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