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Old 02-20-2013, 04:48 PM #85
EgoManiacal
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Have you ever been directly affected by gun violence, or violent behavior in general?
Yes.

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So the fact that the same violent assaults will continue is fine as long as more people survive them? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. You still have people being driven to violent behavior. That still needs to be fixed. All you have done is slightly reduced the severity of the end result while violating the rights of everyone else.
This is where you and I are going to disagree, I don't believe that increasing the difficulty to obtain a firearm is infringing anyone's rights as long as they're eventually able to obtain them or unless they've forfeited those rights (felons, etc).

I don't see how requiring background checks for any firearm transfer infringes on the rights of people who are allowed to have firearms.
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:49 PM #86
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Yes.
Directly? As in you or someone you know very well was the victim?
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Old 02-20-2013, 04:54 PM #87
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Directly? As in you or someone you know very well was the victim?
I have been the victim of violent behavior. A girl I was dating was the victim of violent behavior while running on the street. But no, I don't know anyone 'very well' who has been the victim of gun crime. I do know a few people who have been victimized with guns, but I don't know any of them 'very well'.

edit: a couple classmates and a dude I see at parties every now and then have been held at gunpoint, just for clarification. And by held I mean in two of the instances they were knocked to the ground from behind and held with a gun while being robbed.
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Old 02-20-2013, 05:46 PM #88
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I've been shot at with a rifle in LA, and it's no surprise it was in a minority neighborhood. The bullet hit the ground next to my foot as I was getting in my car.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:13 PM #89
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I've been shot at with a rifle in LA, and it's no surprise it was in a minority neighborhood. The bullet hit the ground next to my foot as I was getting in my car.
I find it unsurprising that people would want to shoot at you.
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Old 02-20-2013, 06:37 PM #90
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I find it unsurprising that people would want to shoot at you.
Whoever it was had never seen me before so that doesn't make much sense.
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Old 02-20-2013, 08:52 PM #91
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Originally Posted by EgoManiacal View Post
I have been the victim of violent behavior. A girl I was dating was the victim of violent behavior while running on the street. But no, I don't know anyone 'very well' who has been the victim of gun crime. I do know a few people who have been victimized with guns, but I don't know any of them 'very well'.

edit: a couple classmates and a dude I see at parties every now and then have been held at gunpoint, just for clarification. And by held I mean in two of the instances they were knocked to the ground from behind and held with a gun while being robbed.
Then you lied, you haven't been directly affected by gun violence, nor affected in anyway. Basically what I take from your post is a bunch of he said, she said bull ****.
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Old 02-21-2013, 06:05 AM #92
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Then you lied, you haven't been directly affected by gun violence, nor affected in anyway. Basically what I take from your post is a bunch of he said, she said bull ****.
I never lied (try reading what I said again slow enough to fully comprehend it), and I don't care what you took from my post.

Denial is fun! Nobody's actually affected by gun crime, how could I be so silly?
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:04 AM #93
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=
Some tools are unquestionably more effective at certain tasks than others. There is not a doubt in my mind that a significant portion of those 11,000 people would still be alive had they been attacked with knives instead of guns.
Assuming that your restrictions of whichever kind actually work and the criminal doesn't simply resort to other methods of taking a life. I could just as easily tell you that loose CCW laws could have saved those individuals as well. I'm not really of the mind to make this about legislation, there are proper ways to fix these problems that require more than authoring some documents to stack onto ineffective documents.

This smacks of moral indignation to be honest. The harsh reality is that people kill each other and 11,000 is too low a number to warrant, well, anything.

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That said, I am equally concerned with the aggressive undertones American culture has adopted. They are not as prevalent in other nations, and it seems to come from many sources. It is, however, quite a bit more ambiguous and difficult to address with social programs or legislation or even cultural shifts than addressing violence head-on, so it doesn't seem particularly productive to focus on.
Adopted? This is America, the frontier, danger and violence are in our blood. Violence is not a bad thing, at all, it has its time and place. You shouldn't suppress it. It's all about restraint and respect for violence. Remember, civility does not have to mean docility and pacifism.
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Old 02-21-2013, 09:46 AM #94
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I have been the victim of violent behavior. A girl I was dating was the victim of violent behavior while running on the street. But no, I don't know anyone 'very well' who has been the victim of gun crime. I do know a few people who have been victimized with guns, but I don't know any of them 'very well'.

edit: a couple classmates and a dude I see at parties every now and then have been held at gunpoint, just for clarification. And by held I mean in two of the instances they were knocked to the ground from behind and held with a gun while being robbed.
My grandfather was shot and killed while working at his auto body shop when I was a kid. We are a family of Cuban immigrants, and he was without a doubt the patriarch. He took care of everyone, got family members over here from Cuba, and in general kept the family together. He was a hugely important part of my life. His death destroyed my mother, and I watched her suffer for years because of it. The rest of the family eventually fragmented with him gone, as no one could fill the leadership role left open after his death. The man who shot him was a Colombian guy. He was arrested and eventually sentenced to life in prison. Right now he is serving a sentence in California for stabbing a woman to death over there.

The person that killed my grandfather was a worthless individual with a long history of violent criminal behavior, and would have done what he did if he had a gun or not.

I have personally been assaulted on more than one occasion and was able to defend myself with a knife as I was not yet legally permitted to carry a firearm. Now I am armed with a handgun every day, everywhere I go. Gun laws would not have saved my grandfather. They would not have prevented the violent assaults I was subjected to. Pretending you can legislate away violent behavior, or that if my grandfather had been stabbed instead of shot things would have been better, is ridiculous.

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I've been shot at with a rifle in LA, and it's no surprise it was in a minority neighborhood. The bullet hit the ground next to my foot as I was getting in my car.
Just like how your teacher showed you secret CIA documents about Roswell. Be quiet and stop ruining discussion with your stupid bull****.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:09 AM #95
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Just like how your teacher showed you secret CIA documents about Roswell. Be quiet and stop ruining discussion with your stupid bull****.
Of course how could I forget, guns don't exist in LA and nobody shoots anybody over there.

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I have personally been assaulted on more than one occasion and was able to defend myself with a knife as I was not yet legally permitted to carry a firearm.
Settle down rambo, you expect anybody to believe your stupid bull****? You're not relevant enough for anybody to assault.

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Old 02-21-2013, 10:16 AM #96
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Of course how could I forget, guns don't exist in LA and nobody shoots anybody over there.



Settle down rambo, you expect anybody to believe your stupid bull****? You're not relevant enough for anybody to assault.
Your denial is pretty much ironclad proof the event took place.
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Old 02-21-2013, 10:48 AM #97
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Adopted? This is America, the frontier, danger and violence are in our blood. Violence is not a bad thing, at all, it has its time and place. You shouldn't suppress it. It's all about restraint and respect for violence. Remember, civility does not have to mean docility and pacifism.
Violence outside of its time and place is unquestionably a bad thing. And I struggle to see most American culture as "civil".

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Gun laws would not have saved my grandfather. They would not have prevented the violent assaults I was subjected to. Pretending you can legislate away violent behavior, or that if my grandfather had been stabbed instead of shot things would have been better, is ridiculous.
I am sorry to hear about your Grandfather.

And you're right, you cannot legislate behavior. And maybe gun control wouldn't have saved your grandfather's life, that's impossible to know. It is seriously questionable that gun laws would have any impact on premeditated murder.

But I disagree that you cannot change the outlets for people's behavior through legislation. Each increment of making access to guns more difficult is going to reduce the number of fatalities from crimes committed in the spur of the moment, and that is a non-trivial number. That's why there are waiting periods for gun retailers. If there were punishment attached to lending someone a firearm, or selling a firearm to someone without running a background check first (which private party transfers currently DO NOT require), at least a few people would think twice about doing it.

As for CCW, if that's what you want to do I don't care. But guns don't deter the desperate and angry, and pulling a gun on someone mugging you at gunpoint is unquestionably the fastest way to get yourself shot. But that's entirely your call. I'd personally rather cancel my credit cards and buy a new phone.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:07 AM #98
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But I disagree that you cannot change the outlets for people's behavior through legislation. Each increment of making access to guns more difficult is going to reduce the number of fatalities from crimes committed in the spur of the moment, and that is a non-trivial number. That's why there are waiting periods for gun retailers. If there were punishment attached to lending someone a firearm, or selling a firearm to someone without running a background check first (which private party transfers currently DO NOT require), at least a few people would think twice about doing it.
That is quite a load of conjecture and isn't backed up by facts. Why do cities that have waiting periods for purchases, gun registrations, and no private sales without a background check have high rates of gun violence? Chicago being a prime example.

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As for CCW, if that's what you want to do I don't care. But guns don't deter the desperate and angry, and pulling a gun on someone mugging you at gunpoint is unquestionably the fastest way to get yourself shot. But that's entirely your call. I'd personally rather cancel my credit cards and buy a new phone.
Your underlying message is that its better to lay back and let the criminal have their way instead of fighting back. There is no gaurantee that you won't be shot for being the only material witness, even if you are unarmed and do comply. I would rather be killed reaching for my gun than while standing there completely and utterly helpless.
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Old 02-21-2013, 11:14 AM #99
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I carry a weapon because it affords me the option to use force if I deem it necessary. I have had several confrontations whilst armed and have chosen not to draw, and was able to deescalate the situation without harming anyone. I also know in the instances where I was forced to resort to using a knife (both attack were unprovoked and had no discernible motive, no request for my property or anything, btw) I would have much prefer having a handgun to engaging in a much larger and stronger individual with what I had. I much prefer having the gun available if I need it and making the call as to when that might be on my own.

I am fully aware of how private party transfers work. I buy and trade firearms regularly as a collector.

All of the studies I have read point to illegal street buys as a major source of crime guns, as well as obtaining the firearm from family/friends and straw purchases. Criminals do not typically go on gun trading boards to buy a gun from a stranger who is going to document the transfer with a bill of sale and emails/texts or whatever. They get the guns from the same people they buy drugs and other contraband from.

Imposing completely voluntary and unenforceable background checks on sales you have no way of knowing are taking place makes no sense at all.
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Old 02-21-2013, 12:10 PM #100
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Violence outside of its time and place is unquestionably a bad thing. And I struggle to see most American culture as "civil".



I am sorry to hear about your Grandfather.

And you're right, you cannot legislate behavior. And maybe gun control wouldn't have saved your grandfather's life, that's impossible to know. It is seriously questionable that gun laws would have any impact on premeditated murder.

But I disagree that you cannot change the outlets for people's behavior through legislation. Each increment of making access to guns more difficult is going to reduce the number of fatalities from crimes committed in the spur of the moment, and that is a non-trivial number. That's why there are waiting periods for gun retailers. If there were punishment attached to lending someone a firearm, or selling a firearm to someone without running a background check first (which private party transfers currently DO NOT require), at least a few people would think twice about doing it.

As for CCW, if that's what you want to do I don't care. But guns don't deter the desperate and angry, and pulling a gun on someone mugging you at gunpoint is unquestionably the fastest way to get yourself shot. But that's entirely your call. I'd personally rather cancel my credit cards and buy a new phone.
Holy **** I just realized who I'm talking to. Ha. Anyway.

Do we even know what that time and place is? Seriously.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:31 PM #101
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As for CCW, if that's what you want to do I don't care. But guns don't deter the desperate and angry,
So I should just get on my knee's and beg for my life right? I'd rather take the risk and die well ventilated and uncork the other guy too, than be shot execution style.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:36 PM #102
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So I should just get on my knee's and beg for my life right? ...
I don't think that is what he is saying.
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Old 02-21-2013, 01:58 PM #103
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I don't think that is what he is saying.
Tman has a lot of trouble with the whole reading thing.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:14 PM #104
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I don't think that is what he is saying.
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Tman has a lot of trouble with the whole reading thing.
"But guns don't deter the desperate and angry."

What he is saying, is that you shouldn't carry a gun, and should instead die like a coward, because your gun won't deter the desperate and angry. Implying that guns are only good for deterring people if a shot is not fired.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:18 PM #105
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"But guns don't deter the desperate and angry."

What he is saying, is that you shouldn't carry a gun, and should instead die like a coward, because your gun won't deter the desperate and angry. Implying that guns are only good for deterring people if a shot is not fired.
No.
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