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Old 02-20-2013, 11:29 AM #64
TheSilentAssassin
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Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
Registration facilitates any potential future confiscation while providing no benefit when it comes to reducing the availability of weapons or violent crime. Not to mention adding tremendous expense.

Why should we impliment such a thing? Just because?
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I don't think this is a discussion that can be reasonable had around here. My only intention was to show the fallacy of assuming a necessary connection between registration and confiscation. I believe I have adequately done so.
I am getting quite sick of repeating myself.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:46 AM #65
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I have not once purported that gun control would address mass shootings. They are too rare and diverse in nature to sensibly address with sweeping policy. I'm interested in the over 16,000 firearm homicides comitted in 2010. Straw men make you sound like an idiot, don't do it.
Oh, goody. Someone else who has had high school debate class and remembers something from it.

So now that you have admitted that registration would not solve or even address the mass shootings that have spurred the recent fervor to force registration, show exactly how registration would have prevented any of those 16,000 firearm homocides you referenced.

And BTW, according to the CDC, there were 11,078 intentional homocides involving firearms in 2010, not 16,000. Check Table 18 here:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/dea...10_release.pdf

Where did you come up with the figure of 16,000 firearm homocides in 2010?
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:54 AM #66
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16,000? That's nothing.
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Old 02-20-2013, 11:56 AM #67
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http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm

Misread it, you're correct. I'll answer your other question later, busy atm.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:10 PM #68
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I still don't understand why firearm crimes deserve special attention over other violent behavior. If you go after the socioeconomic and cultural issues that drive people to violent crime, the means by which the accomplish them becomes unimportant.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:17 PM #69
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I still don't understand why firearm crimes deserve special attention over other violent behavior. If you go after the socioeconomic and cultural issues that drive people to violent crime, the means by which the accomplish them becomes unimportant.
I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. We, as a society, are focused on means over ends. As a result we have lost the capacity for substantial problem solving. This sort of inverse logic is the reason why we (try to) solve failed policy with a double helping of the same.

In the case of violent crime, only a complete fool is only concerned with the tools a criminal uses.

Last edited by Iamamartianchurch : 02-20-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:50 PM #70
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If your response to address illegal guns is to "better enforce the laws on the books", how would you propose doing so? What is happening now is clearly not working, how do we make it work better??
What is happening now is clearly working very well, as the violent crime rate in this country has dropped tremendously over the past 20 years. This has occurred alongside increases in gun rights and gun ownership. Gun violence has also been decreasing over time.
I'm all in favor of sitting back and watching the trend continue. I think we will be better served by enacting policies that improve education, produce opportunity, and reform our mental health and prison systems than by passing any new gun control measures.

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The ATF has been hamstrung by the NRA into being an even more ineffective agency than it was when it started. It is too small and has been leaderless for years, in part because of ill-concieved actions in the past. The ATF is effectively useless for enforcement purposes, warranted or not.?

So I ask again, how do we go about changing policy/enforcement agencies so they can effectively "enforce the laws on the books"?
I agree, we should shovel more resources into the same agency that brought us operation fast and furious in the hopes that they arm...I mean catch more criminals. The ATF has been rife with abuses of power, and inconsistent interpretations of the laws it enforces since its inception. I think they're doing as good a job as we can ever expect them to do right now.
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:56 PM #71
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Anyone read uncle joes newest valuable home defense advise? Saying he tells his wife if she hears/sees something outside, to go to the balcony and shoot their double barrel shotgun in the air.

So kids, if your house is about to be invaded, go outside where the criminal is, and shoot projectiles into the air.

Derp
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Old 02-20-2013, 12:56 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
I still don't understand why firearm crimes deserve special attention over other violent behavior. If you go after the socioeconomic and cultural issues that drive people to violent crime, the means by which the accomplish them becomes unimportant.
Meh, that would take accountability and responsibility. Too much work.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:06 PM #73
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Originally Posted by Bloodeagle View Post
Oh, goody. Someone else who has had high school debate class and remembers something from it.

So now that you have admitted that registration would not solve or even address the mass shootings that have spurred the recent fervor to force registration, show exactly how registration would have prevented any of those 16,000 firearm homocides you referenced.

And BTW, according to the CDC, there were 11,078 intentional homocides involving firearms in 2010, not 16,000. Check Table 18 here:

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/dea...10_release.pdf

Where did you come up with the figure of 16,000 firearm homocides in 2010?
Some perspective here guys. 11,078 constitutes .004% of the US population in 2010. That is nooooooooothing.
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Old 02-20-2013, 01:32 PM #74
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Joe Biden says "Buy a shotgun for home defence! Not an AR15..."

But just don't buy this one,

Or this one

Or this one

Or this one

Or this one

Or this one

Or this one

Which are far "too dangerous" and scary for you to own and are on the AWB "ban list".
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:12 PM #75
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Some perspective here guys. 11,078 constitutes .004% of the US population in 2010. That is nooooooooothing.
Alternatively, 2/3rds of all homicides are comitted with firearms in a country that has a bloated homicide rate relative to other industrialized nations. It's not a huge deal, but I don't see how it doesn't warrant attention.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:17 PM #76
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Originally Posted by SevenGold-IV View Post
What is happening now is clearly working very well, as the violent crime rate in this country has dropped tremendously over the past 20 years. This has occurred alongside increases in gun rights and gun ownership. Gun violence has also been decreasing over time.
I'm all in favor of sitting back and watching the trend continue. I think we will be better served by enacting policies that improve education, produce opportunity, and reform our mental health and prison systems than by passing any new gun control measures.



I agree, we should shovel more resources into the same agency that brought us operation fast and furious in the hopes that they arm...I mean catch more criminals. The ATF has been rife with abuses of power, and inconsistent interpretations of the laws it enforces since its inception. I think they're doing as good a job as we can ever expect them to do right now.
Which is pretty mush what I said about the ATF. So assuming their incompetence, how do we improve enforcement (outside of the atf if need be)
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I still don't understand why firearm crimes deserve special attention over other violent behavior. If you go after the socioeconomic and cultural issues that drive people to violent crime, the means by which the accomplish them becomes unimportant.
I don't disagree with this, but trying to get Republicans to fund afterschool programs for inner city youth (which have a measurable effect and have had funding slashed) is worse than pulling teeth.
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Old 02-20-2013, 02:31 PM #77
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Which is pretty mush what I said about the ATF. So assuming their incompetence, how do we improve enforcement (outside of the atf if need be)


I don't disagree with this, but trying to get Republicans to fund afterschool programs for inner city youth (which have a measurable effect and have had funding slashed) is worse than pulling teeth.
So then why is this focus and effort on passing mostly ineffective gun related legislation? Why aren't groups like MAIG and the Brady Campaign funding fights for these programs (or... the programs themselves!) if they actually wish to reduce "gun violence"? Democrats would rather fight for feel-good solve-nothing legislation like gun control and have "done something" about the problem than fight the meaningful fight for better education and cultural development of urban minorities.

Of course, that might be alienating to a lot of their voter base if they were to focus effort on reducing violent crime by creating programs targeting the low-income minority groups actually perpetuating most of it. It isn't very "progressive", is it?

Of course they could just keep blaming the Republicans or whoever they don't like for not allowing "common sens" gun laws and other worthless ****...

This is an issue of stupid people doing stupid **** that solves nothing, not a Republican or Democrat problem. Stop trying to play up your side and try to solve the ****ing problem.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:01 PM #78
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So then why is this focus and effort on passing mostly ineffective gun related legislation? Why aren't groups like MAIG and the Brady Campaign funding fights for these programs (or... the programs themselves!) if they actually wish to reduce "gun violence"? Democrats would rather fight for feel-good solve-nothing legislation like gun control and have "done something" about the problem than fight the meaningful fight for better education and cultural development of urban minorities.

Of course, that might be alienating to a lot of their voter base if they were to focus effort on reducing violent crime by creating programs targeting the low-income minority groups actually perpetuating most of it. It isn't very "progressive", is it?

Of course they could just keep blaming the Republicans or whoever they don't like for not allowing "common sens" gun laws and other worthless ****...

This is an issue of stupid people doing stupid **** that solves nothing, not a Republican or Democrat problem. Stop trying to play up your side and try to solve the ****ing problem.
That is actually the definition of progressive.

And I have been largely disappointed by the democrat's response as well. Many have fit embarassingly well into the caricature of people who know nothing about guns with these ridiculous assault weapons bans.

That said, there is a problem as you just acknowledged. People arguing for gun rights have traditionally denied the problem even exists, and whenever I try to motivate discussion I get thrown into unproductive conundrums that are a product of thinking that doesn't want anything to change at all. "Improve enforcement!" people say. Then theyshoot down every proposal to do so without providing any of their own. If the ATF can't do it, mandate local law enforcement and provide funding. Or abolish the atf and re-organize a new agency with the lessons of the atf in mind. "Address socioeconomic conditions!" they say. Then they revolt at more progressive tax rates and social programs targeting socioeconomic issues.

There is a problem, and what we're doing isn't working. I would love to see this turn into a sounding board for ideas that aren't going to infringe on the second amendment, but do a better job of addressing gun crime than we're doing now.

If you shoot something down, come up with a solution that satisfies your objections.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:22 PM #79
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Alternatively, 2/3rds of all homicides are comitted with firearms in a country that has a bloated homicide rate relative to other industrialized nations. It's not a huge deal, but I don't see how it doesn't warrant attention.
Why are the tools, not the homicides important to you?
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:28 PM #80
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That is actually the definition of progressive.

And I have been largely disappointed by the democrat's response as well. Many have fit embarassingly well into the caricature of people who know nothing about guns with these ridiculous assault weapons bans.

That said, there is a problem as you just acknowledged. People arguing for gun rights have traditionally denied the problem even exists, and whenever I try to motivate discussion I get thrown into unproductive conundrums that are a product of thinking that doesn't want anything to change at all. "Improve enforcement!" people say. Then theyshoot down every proposal to do so without providing any of their own. If the ATF can't do it, mandate local law enforcement and provide funding. Or abolish the atf and re-organize a new agency with the lessons of the atf in mind. "Address socioeconomic conditions!" they say. Then they revolt at more progressive tax rates and social programs targeting socioeconomic issues.

There is a problem, and what we're doing isn't working. I would love to see this turn into a sounding board for ideas that aren't going to infringe on the second amendment, but do a better job of addressing gun crime than we're doing now.

If you shoot something down, come up with a solution that satisfies your objections.
Note I had "progressive" in quotes. What people like to pretend it means and what it actually means are two different things.

None of the gun legislation being proposed is going to solve the "gun violence" problem in this country. The restrictions are so strongly opposed because they know it isn't going to stop at these "reasonable" restrictions. When the next shooting takes place they will push for more, which again will not change anything. None of it should be allowed to pass because it is never going to stop.

The violent crime country stems from a lot of unpleasant issues no politician is going to touch. The problems are incredibly complex and I don't know how to address all of them. I do know, however, that attempting to ban firearms of particular types, institute registration, impose limits on magazine capacities, force background checks for private sales, and other measures that have become the focus of national discussion do absolutely nothing to address the real problems driving violent crime in this country. Democrat politicians want to go after guns directly because it is easy to villainize them and create the appearance that something is being done. It is hard to draw the connections to the social problems driving the violent behavior, and even harder to correct them.

We have a massive illegal drug trade, which is at the center of the most of the problems, and like gun control, making drugs more illegal isn't going to do anything to make it go away. I don't know how to fix it, but our focus should be here.

We have a huge problem with minorities in this country having children out of wedlock, which put them at a tremendous disadvantage in life from day one. We also have problems with those same groups turning to criminal activity in disproportionate numbers. They also do much more poorly in school at all economic levels. Again, I don't know how to correct it, but the focus of national discussion should be here.

I think addressing those issue will do a great deal to reduce the violent crime and improve the socioeconomic situations of minorities in this country. We focus on symptoms of the problems and do nothing to address the problems themselves.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:32 PM #81
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Why are the tools, not the homicides important to you?
tool; Noun
A device or implement, esp. one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.

Some tools are unquestionably more effective at certain tasks than others. There is not a doubt in my mind that a significant portion of those 11,000 people would still be alive had they been attacked with knives instead of guns.

That said, I am equally concerned with the aggressive undertones American culture has adopted. They are not as prevalent in other nations, and it seems to come from many sources. It is, however, quite a bit more ambiguous and difficult to address with social programs or legislation or even cultural shifts than addressing violence head-on, so it doesn't seem particularly productive to focus on.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:41 PM #82
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Just to give you all a background of the gun violence that has been in the news in my area in the last week:

http://www.diamondbackonline.com/new...a4bcf6878.html

http://www.wtop.com/58/3228169/Polic...hot-and-killed

And I'm sure several gang or domestic dispute related killings as well, but those don't make the news anymore. I realize it's symptomatic of living where I do, but the next time someone says there's not a problem I'm just going to put them on my ignore list.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:46 PM #83
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So the fact that the same violent assaults will continue is fine as long as more people survive them? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever to me. You still have people being driven to violent behavior. That still needs to be fixed. All you have done is slightly reduced the severity of the end result while violating the rights of everyone else.
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Old 02-20-2013, 03:47 PM #84
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Just to give you all a background of the gun violence that has been in the news in my area in the last week:

http://www.diamondbackonline.com/new...a4bcf6878.html

http://www.wtop.com/58/3228169/Polic...hot-and-killed

And I'm sure several gang or domestic dispute related killings as well, but those don't make the news anymore. I realize it's symptomatic of living where I do, but the next time someone says there's not a problem I'm just going to put them on my ignore list.
Have you ever been directly effected by gun violence, or violent behavior in general?
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