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Old 02-19-2013, 11:35 AM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post

You are taking a bit of a silly position here...

You know as well as anyone that the ultimate desire of the people pushing this sort of legislation is the severe limitation, if not total elimination, of privately held firearms.

Remember in the early 90's how they wanted to ban ammunition loaded with hollow points because they were "cop killer bullets"? Remember how it was "common sense", "reasonable", "in the interest of public safety", and all that nonsense? This is no different. It is stupid bull**** being pushed by people who want nothing more than to remove firearms from society by pushing/exploiting the mistaken belief that it will solve our problems with violent criminal behavior.
In other words, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:17 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
You are taking a bit of a silly position here...

You know as well as anyone that the ultimate desire of the people pushing this sort of legislation is the severe limitation, if not total elimination, of privately held firearms.

Remember in the early 90's how they wanted to ban ammunition loaded with hollow points because they were "cop killer bullets"? Remember how it was "common sense", "reasonable", "in the interest of public safety", and all that nonsense? This is no different. It is stupid bull**** being pushed by people who want nothing more than to remove firearms from society by pushing/exploiting the mistaken belief that it will solve our problems with violent criminal behavior.
I am just arguing against this fallacious notion that registration must lead to confiscation that is so often dropped around here. As I have said, no one has sufficiently shown that it does. Quite the contrary, I have shown that it doesn't necessarily follow. Stop turning my argument into something it is not.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:23 PM #24
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:29 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Nice dodge. So, do you admit that "That's why it has happened in every other country that made people register their guns?" was bull****?
Nice dodge. So do you admit semi-automatic guns being "military-style" is bull****?
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:05 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I am just arguing against this fallacious notion that registration must lead to confiscation that is so often dropped around here. As I have said, no one has sufficiently shown that it does. Quite the contrary, I have shown that it doesn't necessarily follow. Stop turning my argument into something it is not.
Except that in this case it is pretty clear that the individuals involved would like that in the end. You are talking in irrelevant absolutes just to have an argument. That's silly.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:27 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake360 View Post
Nice dodge. So do you admit semi-automatic guns being "military-style" is bull****?
1) How am I dodging by forcing you to address the question you dodged?
2) Yes it's bull****. That's hardly the point. You are clearly making a red herring right now.
3) Answer my question. Do you admit that "That's why it has happened in every other country that made people register their guns?" was bull****?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
Except that in this case it is pretty clear that the individuals involved would like that in the end. You are talking in irrelevant absolutes just to have an argument. That's silly.
I support gun registration but not gun confiscation so breaking the necessary connection between gun registration is important to me on two levels.

Firstly, if I am going to support what I just said, then this necessary slippery slope connection would clearly be a problem. This is why I have shown that no such necessary connection exists (every country besides us has some form of gun regulation; most don't have any gun confiscation). I believe I have adequately proven that point.

Secondly, there is never anything wrong with destroying an ignorant common notion. If people are believing stupid ****, such as the necessary connection between registration and confiscation, which can easily be seen to not be true, I would argue that it is the duty of any rational man to attempt to show the invalidity of such an idea. I would think it rather poor virtue not to show someone the clear error in their judgement.
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Old 02-19-2013, 01:49 PM #28
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What do you hope registration will accomplish?
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:01 PM #29
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Guns out of hands of mental cases is my guess. Just lax the restrictions on carry and shoot the bastards when they try something funny.


BUT ITS 2013 AND WE IS CIVILIZATION AND ARE ADVANCED IM LIKE MORALS ANT SCIENS.
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:46 PM #30
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FYI http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/17/op...-too.html?_r=0
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Old 02-19-2013, 02:56 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
The mandatory background checks are totally ineffective (outside of useless "stings") in eliminating illegal transfers and are totally unenforceable without registration.
You're not going to immediately prevent criminals from getting guns with background checks. What you can do is begin to eliminate the sources from which criminals get guns. If background checks were required for private sales:

A crime is committed.
-See if a background check was performed when the sale took place
--If yes and it came back clean, everyone's fine
--If no, seller is held liable (and future sales can be prevented)

One would think it basic social responsibility to not sell a firearm to a violent criminal, but apparently it needs to be legislated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Just lax the restrictions on carry and shoot the bastards when they try something funny.
Indeed, this is the unspoken position of proponents of unlimited access.
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Last edited by EgoManiacal : 02-19-2013 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:04 PM #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric the Fish View Post
Don't stop there. You gotta ban guns on TV and in video games too.

No Call of Duty for you!
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:13 PM #33
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http://www.tracetheguns.org/#/laws/4/

I direct your attention to the relative "Crime gun export rate" for states that "Require Background Checks for all Handgun Sales at Gun Shows"
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:25 PM #34
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Have you ever been to a gun show? Do you know how they work? An FFL who sells guns at a show still has to complete a 4473 and a background check to sell a firearm there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EgoManiacal View Post
You're not going to immediately prevent criminals from getting guns with background checks. What you can do is begin to eliminate the sources from which criminals get guns. If background checks were required for private sales:

A crime is committed.
-See if a background check was performed when the sale took place
--If yes and it came back clean, everyone's fine
--If no, seller is held liable (and future sales can be prevented)

One would think it basic social responsibility to not sell a firearm to a violent criminal, but apparently it needs to be legislated.
You have no way of proving a sale took place at all and with whom without registration.

In my experience with private firearms sales people are very careful about who they sell to. They usually generate some sort of bill of sale, ask for your ID, and the majority of the time require that whomever is purchasing the firearm have a concealed weapons permit. I have purchased dozens of firearms in private sales.

Legislation requiring that I go to an FFL and pay money to submit to a background check and fill out a 4473 will not solve any problems, as criminals will continue to buy stolen and straw purchased firearms as they did before. Private sales from your average citizen is not a large source of crime guns.

I can't find the original DOJ report at the moment, so here is an exerpt from an article citing it.

Quote:
A 1997 Justice Department survey of more than 18,000 state and federal convicts revealed the truth:

• 39.6% of criminals obtained a gun from a friend or family member
• 39.2% of criminals obtained a gun on the street or from an illegal source
• 0.7% of criminals purchased a gun at a gun show
• 1% of criminals purchased a gun at a flea market
• 3.8% of criminals from a pawn shop
• 8.3% of criminals purchased a gun from a retail outlet
Criminals are not on gun trading boards trolling adds for their guns hoping to buy one from someone like me. They buy them from the same people they buy their drugs and other illegal goods. Nothing of any use is going to be accomplished by making background checks for private sales mandatory. Look at all the criminals getting guns at gun shows...

Last edited by Space Pope : 02-19-2013 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:54 PM #35
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I'm trying to localize this problem away from something so abstract as, 'they're taking mah guns!!!'

Does anyone remember when turbo mode was a big deal in paintball?

Smart parts had a board for shockers and you could pull your mag RT in just a way that it would go into 'TURBO!!!!1LK1J24023'.

A lot of fields banned turbo mode because they thought it was not safe to be able to shoot that much paint, that fast. As a paintball judge at the time, I agreed with this move because for the average paintball rec kid, the last thing they would need is a bunch of paint in the face from some jerk trying to justify overpaying for turbo mode.

So some fields chose to ban it, others did not. This didn't stop SP from making the gun (though they did stop later since the shocker was a huge sucky brick at the time).

In this particular issue the article is about, States are like the fields, and this whiney gun manufacturer is Smart Parts. the clip manufacturer is still going to make money selling to everyone else in the country, AND if there ever is a time, every state bans high-capacity clips... tough bananas. The people have spoken, nothing is to stop them from un-banning them.

I'd rather the states tackle this than the feds.

TLDR: shockers suck. buy a C+C machine?
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Old 02-19-2013, 03:59 PM #36
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For all you sorry mfrs who still haven't gotten anything for your gf for V-Day....

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Old 02-19-2013, 04:08 PM #37
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Bill introduced in MO to jail any politician that introduces a gun control bill.

Murica
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:42 PM #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
What do you hope registration will accomplish?
I think guns should be registered for the same reason cars are. Accountability.

P.S. Tafari, the rise of the internet makes a 1997 study fairly irrelevant.
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:43 PM #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Space Pope View Post
Have you ever been to a gun show? Do you know how they work? An FFL who sells guns at a show still has to complete a 4473 and a background check to sell a firearm there.



You have no way of proving a sale took place at all and with whom without registration.

In my experience with private firearms sales people are very careful about who they sell to. They usually generate some sort of bill of sale, ask for your ID, and the majority of the time require that whomever is purchasing the firearm have a concealed weapons permit. I have purchased dozens of firearms in private sales.

Legislation requiring that I go to an FFL and pay money to submit to a background check and fill out a 4473 will not solve any problems, as criminals will continue to buy stolen and straw purchased firearms as they did before. Private sales from your average citizen is not a large source of crime guns.

I can't find the original DOJ report at the moment, so here is an exerpt from an article citing it.



Criminals are not on gun trading boards trolling adds for their guns hoping to buy one from someone like me. They buy them from the same people they buy their drugs and other illegal goods. Nothing of any use is going to be accomplished by making background checks for private sales mandatory. Look at all the criminals getting guns at gun shows...
Guess you haven't gone to a gun show in Indiana then. Try to at least read the article before you spout off. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...gun-trafficker
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:44 PM #40
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I think guns should be registered for the same reason cars are. Accountability.
And that would solve what exactly?
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Old 02-19-2013, 04:48 PM #41
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And that would solve what exactly?
He isn't trying to solve anything, he just wants accountability. Car registration hasn't eliminated motor vehicle death but it probably helps make the vehicle owners liable for their actions should something happen.

I don't think there is a pressing need for guns to need registration however.
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Old 02-19-2013, 05:19 PM #42
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I think guns should be registered for the same reason cars are. Accountability.
Our current laws hold people accountable for their actions with guns. A registration would not make anyone more accountable. It would, however, be an invasion of privacy.
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