Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-14-2013, 03:56 PM #1
troyus
 
 
troyus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yes
Is GOG less Douchy than Smart Parts was?

Let me start off by saying: I am not a troll.

I am however relatively new to paintball and have never owned a spoolie. Friend of mine has an old Ion and I thought it had some interesting character traits.

I know Smart Parts was toxic for paintball as a sport, preferring to litigate rather than innovate; by buying a GOG product today, am I rewarding bad behavior in the here and now?
troyus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Sponsored Links Remove Advertisement
Advertisement
Old 02-14-2013, 04:16 PM #2
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Actually, SP did more for the sport than most companies. They were the first to offer high end performance and parts on low end markers. The ion changed the game for the better.

They were very innovative and did a lot of good; paintball wouldn't be nearly as big as it is if not for smartparts.

Last edited by Paper_Cut : 02-14-2013 at 04:19 PM.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 07:23 PM #3
NightKreeper
 
 
NightKreeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Springfield, Missouri
NightKreeper is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
NightKreeper plays in the PSP
NightKreeper plays in the APPA D4 division
I feel like you're repeating someone else's opinion as your own.
__________________
old feedback 31/0/0
AC 417
Kick'n Paintball Park
Planet Eclipse
G.I. Sportz
V-Force
Exalt
NightKreeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 07:31 PM #4
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKreeper View Post
I feel like you're repeating someone else's opinion as your own.
After 8 years I've had time to formulate my own opinion.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 07:39 PM #5
NightKreeper
 
 
NightKreeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Springfield, Missouri
NightKreeper is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
NightKreeper plays in the PSP
NightKreeper plays in the APPA D4 division
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper_Cut View Post
After 8 years I've had time to formulate my own opinion.
Not you, OP
__________________
old feedback 31/0/0
AC 417
Kick'n Paintball Park
Planet Eclipse
G.I. Sportz
V-Force
Exalt
NightKreeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 09:16 PM #6
jtguy2269
PL gun collector
 
jtguy2269's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Big Sky, Montana
 has been a member for 10 years
Do you have any idea why people looked down at smart parts? Do some research and form your own opinion.
__________________
intimidator owner for over a decade
  • Looking for:
  • Freeflow and shocktech markers
jtguy2269 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2013, 10:33 PM #7
Kevin872
 
 
Kevin872's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Kevin872 is playing at Living Legends VI
Yeah I'm confused at the OP. Why was smart parts bad for the paintball community?
Kevin872 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 12:31 AM #8
troyus
 
 
troyus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yes
Just read a lot of threads online about patent trolling going on, is this unfounded internet lore?
troyus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 12:56 AM #9
NightKreeper
 
 
NightKreeper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Springfield, Missouri
NightKreeper is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
NightKreeper plays in the PSP
NightKreeper plays in the APPA D4 division
Its true, but a business acting like a business didn't hurt anything. Hell, smart parts eventually went bankrupt while all the companies they sued are still in business.
__________________
old feedback 31/0/0
AC 417
Kick'n Paintball Park
Planet Eclipse
G.I. Sportz
V-Force
Exalt
NightKreeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 07:25 AM #10
SNAKESNIPER (Banned)
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Toronto
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper_Cut View Post
They were very innovative
...using other people's patented technologies and passing them off as their own. SP didn't "innovate" anything except stealing other people's **** and not paying royalties.
SNAKESNIPER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 10:12 AM #11
troyus
 
 
troyus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yes
Quote:
Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
...using other people's patented technologies and passing them off as their own. SP didn't "innovate" anything except stealing other people's **** and not paying royalties.
This is what I understand, so is GOG new owners, no more ethically questionable behavior?
troyus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 10:34 AM #12
JohnSherman
 
 
JohnSherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Annual Supporting Member
JohnSherman posts videos on PbNation
Quote:
Originally Posted by troyus View Post
This is what I understand, so is GOG new owners, no more ethically questionable behavior?
You understand wrong. SP designed some of the most popular guns of their time, and did a huge amount for the sport. You don't get to that position without innovation. You had four people tell you that you were wrong, don't latch on to the one opinion that happens to line up with yours.
JohnSherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 11:11 AM #13
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
IIRC SP made the first electropneumatic marker, the shocker, in 1995. Which is why they held the patent for EP markers.

They also greatly encouraged tournament paintball. Investing thousands possibly millions to tournament leagues and teams to try and help paintball grow.

They also made the first budget electropneumatic with eyes(which were not standard back then, only the nicest guns had them). Back then if you didn't want a spyder or a tippman it was a huge jump to get what the ion offered. They made a lot of companies stop and think "man, these guys are making money hand-over-fist by making a decent gun with some high end features at a low cost, maybe we should try and get a piece of this pie and make our own budget markers."

The reason they went out of business was due to the economic collapse, NOT because nobody bought their stuff(quite the opposite was true). They took out a loan and bought a bunch of equipment because they were doing well and were preparing to expand the production line to keep up with demand. When the bank they took the loans out with started to collapse, they(the bank) called in all of their loans, SP didn't have the money and had to file bankruptcy.

That is just some of the things smartparts has done. Without SP, I doubt paintball would be as big as it is today.

Last edited by Paper_Cut : 02-15-2013 at 11:14 AM.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 02:25 PM #14
parasyte
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paper_Cut View Post
IIRC SP made the first electropneumatic marker, the shocker, in 1995. Which is why they held the patent for EP markers.
Most of the disagreement stems from this as far as I've been able to research. There's definitely controversy over what happened with pVI and SP back in the day, but ultimately the two of them together made electropneumatic markers and when pVI went out of business (or was driven out of business) SP picked up most of the IP rights that pVI held.

As far as GOG goes, it's still the Gardners and still the same factories, but the patents were picked up by KEE so there's no longer a threat of infringement litigation from them.

If the stories about how pVI went down are true that's terrifically unethical, but the patent litigation stuff is essentially business as usual. I can understand holding a grudge, though.

Without the patents GOG currently can't do what had been seen as actively harmful. Given the quality of the guns they put out at the pricepoint they're listed, there's a pretty compelling case to buy them if that's the budget you have.
parasyte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 02:35 PM #15
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by parasyte View Post
Most of the disagreement stems from this as far as I've been able to research. There's definitely controversy over what happened with pVI and SP back in the day, but ultimately the two of them together made electropneumatic markers and when pVI went out of business (or was driven out of business) SP picked up most of the IP rights that pVI held.

As far as GOG goes, it's still the Gardners and still the same factories, but the patents were picked up by KEE so there's no longer a threat of infringement litigation from them.

If the stories about how pVI went down are true that's terrifically unethical, but the patent litigation stuff is essentially business as usual. I can understand holding a grudge, though.

Without the patents GOG currently can't do what had been seen as actively harmful. Given the quality of the guns they put out at the pricepoint they're listed, there's a pretty compelling case to buy them if that's the budget you have.
Here is what I found on zdspb

Quote:
The invention of the Shocker was a joint mission between engineers of both Smart Parts and pneuVentures. It was the first electropneumatic marker ever manufacture red. The company pVI is no longer around, however at the time they were heavily involved with devices that relied on air and air pressure, hence their name. They made pneumatic devices for NASA and various branches of the military, for instance. And their portfolio of inventions was very large; they knew what they were doing and were quite successful. It seems appropriate that a design such as is seen in the Shocker was invented by them. It uses nothing but air pressure to complete its operation, with the exception of one spring which closes the valve after firing (basically). The low pressure regulator that comes on these markers was invented by PVI however SP bought the claims to both it and the marker itself later on.

This was the situation back then: Smart Parts had exclusive rights to sell PVI's Shocker, so it was often assumed that SP made it. SP has similar contracts with Rase clothing (whom they used to own) and Besales Quality Autococker Parts and Evolution accessories. Anyways, the patent toward this marker claimed not only the specific dump-chamber design, but theoretically other dump-chamber designs as well, and also patented the use of dual solenoid control. One other dual solenoid marker has since been designed (AKALMP Excalibur), however it is no longer made as per the agreement between AKALMP and SP in 2004. In 1997, PVI and SP began to disagree on some things so SP threatened to discontinue their merchandising contract with them, on the grounds that PVI couldn't make it without them. pneuVentures decided to call the bluff and dissolved the contract in August 1997. Sometime later Smart parts bought out the company and they went out of business.

At the time, both SP and pVI were working on their own second-generation Shocker marker. The SP version is called the Shocker Sport and was used from 1998-2002. The pneuVentures version was called the Cyber9000 (aka Warrior) but was never put into production. The Cyber9000 was essentially the same as the previous Shocker, except it functioned off a 9v battery. The SP Shocker Sport, however, was largely redesigned and was substantially lighter as well as faster and more efficient, using better electronics, and better solenoids as well. Smart Parts owned the patent claims to the original Shocker and regulator and further expanded the patent to include all markers with an electronic switch on the ground that they were the first to let this type of device to see the market (which was true).

Nowadays, both the original PVI Shocker and the SP Shocker Sport have been completely discontinued and replaced by a completely new version, known as the Shocker SFT. This marker is a completely different design and doesn't share any functionality with the original Shockers, however due to marketing it was given the same name. Original PVI Shockers can still be sighted around fields and collections, as some 3,000 of them were produced. Most of them that I have personally seen were on the walls of proshops or other old marker collectors, however every once in a while they can be seen on the field.
http://www.zdspb.com/tech/pvi/intro.html
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 02:40 PM #16
troyus
 
 
troyus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Yes
Wow great stuff, thanks for all the info guys, I appreciate it!
troyus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 03:11 PM #17
Millar156
 
 
Millar156's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Patton, PA
Millar156 owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Millar156 has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightKreeper View Post
Its true, but a business acting like a business didn't hurt anything. Hell, smart parts eventually went bankrupt while all the companies they sued are still in business.
Completely wrong. A few are still in business but most are not. AKA no longer makes complete guns, ICD is out of paintball all together, AGD is only selling old stock, and though WDP/Angel wasn't ended by SP they are out of business while SP is still going under GOG.
Millar156 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 03:25 PM #18
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millar156 View Post
Completely wrong. A few are still in business but most are not. AKA no longer makes complete guns, ICD is out of paintball all together, AGD is only selling old stock, and though WDP/Angel wasn't ended by SP they are out of business while SP is still going under GOG.
Angel was making the same gun year after year after year, of course people are going to grow tired of it and stop buying it.
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 03:36 PM #19
Millar156
 
 
Millar156's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Patton, PA
Millar156 owns a Planet Eclipse Ego
Millar156 has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
I'm not arguing that. I'm simply disagreeing with your original statement that SP didn't put companies out of business when they most certainly did. The only one I can think of that they sued that is still going strong is Bob Long.
Millar156 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 04:38 PM #20
TeamBigShot (Banned)
WestCoastWings Inc.
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Quote:
Originally Posted by troyus View Post
Let me start off by saying: I am not a troll.

I am however relatively new to paintball and have never owned a spoolie. Friend of mine has an old Ion and I thought it had some interesting character traits.

I know Smart Parts was toxic for paintball as a sport, preferring to litigate rather than innovate; by buying a GOG product today, am I rewarding bad behavior in the here and now?
okay let me begin by telling you, you are indeed, a troll.... ur relatively new to paintball, and find that characteristics of an old ion... interesting... I find it very interesting that you think you even have the right to formulate such an uneducated opinion and state such a an account, when you in fact have probably never even used either... Meanwhile, you let it be known you find an ion, whatever you said.... get outta here fool... go purchase then put up some praise
TeamBigShot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2013, 05:16 PM #21
Paper_Cut
Keyboard Warrior
 
Paper_Cut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampa, FL
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by Millar156 View Post
I'm not arguing that. I'm simply disagreeing with your original statement that SP didn't put companies out of business when they most certainly did. The only one I can think of that they sued that is still going strong is Bob Long.
I don't think I ever said they didn't put companies out of business, because of some vendetta against paintball; when two business compete, eventually one will lose.
Smart Parts has done a lot for the sport, and the fact that they have been put under a magnifying glass, singling them out for "immoral business practices" when they only did the same thing many other paintball companies have done and are still doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamBigShot View Post
okay let me begin by telling you, you are indeed, a troll.... ur relatively new to paintball, and find that characteristics of an old ion... interesting... I find it very interesting that you think you even have the right to formulate such an uneducated opinion and state such a an account, when you in fact have probably never even used either... Meanwhile, you let it be known you find an ion, whatever you said.... get outta here fool... go purchase then put up some praise
being ignorant does not make one a troll
Paper_Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump