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Old 02-13-2013, 09:23 AM #22
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That LPR is not stock, it's an old Palmer Rock reg. The first generation was all brass. LPRs on stock autocockers weren't adjustable out the front until 2004.

Also, the it was not "mini'd" into one of the first minicockers. You can tell by the serial number. If it were a mini'd full body autococker, the serial number would be partially cut off. It's a factory minicocker since the serial number is complete. It also means it's not too terribly old. That doesn't mean it was tuned by Bob Long at one point though.

Does the back of the frame say anything? A lot of his guns had laser engraving on the frame that said "Ironmen" or similar.

As far as resources for timing, check this out...

http://mcarterbrown.com/ravi/Article...t/ACTroub.html

Ravi knew his stuff. His guides will be perfect for working on your gun because he was working with the same equipment that you have now. He also has a superb article on how polish those stock 3ways. I've gotten those 3ways to be as smooth/short as my Hollowpoint 3ways using that guide, no joke. It's truly a pain because the c-clips on the ends of the 3way, but it's sooo worth it.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:22 AM #23
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Since Palmers provided the original pneumatics in the early 90's (anyone remember that lawsuit?).. Id still consider that a stock part..
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:50 PM #24
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That's news to me. I was under the impression that PPS never sued anyone. PPS even made a point to send that letter to WGP after they started legal action against companies like CCM and AKA, reminding WGP that they were never sued for taking the automated cocking idea.

Where did you get that information from?
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:17 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkapollo View Post
Are you sure its a bob long?
They USUALLY had wild anodize and a cage back block with no beaver tail..
Im no expert, but thats what Ive seen in the past. Also thought they had benchmark or bob long frames.

ALSO, if you are free this weekend, some guys from MCarterBrown are having a big group game at my local field. The more the merrier. Since I see you are in VA, its not a long trip.
I am not 100% sure by any means. After reading everything everyone has posted.... who knows. I can say that I added the beaver tail. It actually didn't even fit around the trigger frame so I had to modify it.

I cant make it out this weekend, but where is the big game? I know that Splatbrothers in Virginia is having one this weekend called Dye Hard.. I just played that field last weekend and I had a fantastic time. Thanks for the invite! I will definitely be branching out to other areas in the near future.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:19 PM #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkapollo View Post
I dont see any reason it wouldnt be able to survive that.
Personally I would just tear it all down and clean it with a toothbrush, QTip, a bit of acetone, and then some soapy water. Polish with your buffing compound of choice.
I tossed mine in my drill press and ran it on high. Using a shop rag with metal polish and fine grit sand paper (there was some heavy tarnish). Polished the inside of the ram as well doing this.
This is great to know. I somehow thought that this was going to be a much more extensive project. I am going to strip this gun down completely and rebuild.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:26 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rancid1845 View Post
That is a DYE SS Barrel.


Sidenote: I love the spring covered pneumatic hoses.
That's it, I remember that name now. Dye SS... hmm they could have come up with a better name than that... I would love to be in that board meeting.. everyone coming up with names and then the one guy with the wire rimmed glasses says "ve should call zis technological masterpiece ze 'Schutstaffel'" and then the Evil Dead fan stands up and says "No! This is my Boomstick!"

Yea I love the spring covered hoses. I always got props for that.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:39 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minimag03 View Post
That LPR is not stock, it's an old Palmer Rock reg. The first generation was all brass. LPRs on stock autocockers weren't adjustable out the front until 2004.

Also, the it was not "mini'd" into one of the first minicockers. You can tell by the serial number. If it were a mini'd full body autococker, the serial number would be partially cut off. It's a factory minicocker since the serial number is complete. It also means it's not too terribly old. That doesn't mean it was tuned by Bob Long at one point though.

Does the back of the frame say anything? A lot of his guns had laser engraving on the frame that said "Ironmen" or similar.

As far as resources for timing, check this out...

http://mcarterbrown.com/ravi/Article...t/ACTroub.html

Ravi knew his stuff. His guides will be perfect for working on your gun because he was working with the same equipment that you have now. He also has a superb article on how polish those stock 3ways. I've gotten those 3ways to be as smooth/short as my Hollowpoint 3ways using that guide, no joke. It's truly a pain because the c-clips on the ends of the 3way, but it's sooo worth it.
Awesome, this is great info. Even though you just ruined my whole perception on the history of this gun!!

That's a great point on the serial number. This would still have to be older than 96 because I picked it up used in August of that year for $600. It was just after I graduated High School and I got into Paintball that summer. I bought the spider first off Ebay and within a month I upgraded to this gun.

It was told to me that Bob Long cut it down, but your point is well made. I have never seen another that was in fact legitimately cut down so my understanding is biased.

There is no laser engraving on this that I have ever seen, unless it would be under the frame which I have never removed. It could always be the case that the previous owner exchanged that frame out. I know he still did play a cocker so he could have kept it.

Thanks for the info on Ravi's instructions. I will check it out. Since everything always ran perfect with this gun, I never ever went inside it because I knew I would mess something up. Now that I have nothing to lose I will strip it down and learn it from the inside out.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:16 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minimag03 View Post
That's news to me. I was under the impression that PPS never sued anyone. PPS even made a point to send that letter to WGP after they started legal action against companies like CCM and AKA, reminding WGP that they were never sued for taking the automated cocking idea.

Where did you get that information from?
Might have been me mis-reading that letter from PPS to WGP.. I thought there was a lawsuit involved between the two which is why WGP started using their own stuff. If Im wrong Im wrong. No harm.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:24 PM #30
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It is entirely possible that it was customized by Bobby. Back then you could send him your gun for "nelson" springs, rock regs, vert adaptors, 45 frames, bolts etc.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:15 PM #31
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Bob might have tuned that gun, but he didn't Mini it...Like was stated before that's a factory WGP mini body because the serial # isn't hacked in half. Brass front ends were stock back in the day EXCEPT for that brass rock reg "which I think is extremely cool" and yes I will agree that it's an old brass Glenn Palmer LPR. I couldn't make out the writing on the frame in the picture, my guess is it's either an old Benchmark or Bob Long 45 frame since they were the common ones back in the day...Either way, it's a classic and hang onto it...Cockers went through a phase where they were not worth crap to most people but the past few years the price has went up on the older guns a lot...I've probably had 30-40 cockers over the years, wish I had them all back now.
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Old 02-22-2013, 08:23 PM #32
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OK, I am in the middle of my rebuild and I have some questions and/or parts requirements. I will post all pics at the end of my project as I have taken them at every stage.

I got some o-rings for all parts on the way and I have torn down the whole gun which I never have done before because it worked flawlessly in the past, but you guys have given me the courage to do so...

Based off of what I am hearing about this gun there were some mods done to this long before they came standard, which I think is very cool. It means nothing to the value, but only intensifies my desire to make it a kick *** cocker again.

So I read that I should polish the interior of the 3 way/4 way and the ram so they have a smooth action. What do you guys recommend to do that? I have a drill press and a dremel tool. What bits and sizes should I use? I was super surprised when i took the ram apart to find it well lubed still! That was pretty awesome (they don't make them like they used to). Also are there any instructions out there in video or pic form?

So now I am throwing out some parts requests:
I need 2 C clips for the 3 way. Both of them broke when I was removing them.
Also I need what I believe is called the ASA. I have the vertical adaptor coming off the block, and I have a prophecy regulator attached to that, but now I need the piece at the bottom of the trigger frame that the tank screws into. I definitely want one with an on/off. My last 4500 tank had that but that was the older style that didn't screw in. Will the Empire On/off work?
The last thing is the hopper adaptor. I need a good 45 degree adaptor.
Anyone have all of these? That would be best for shipping...

Past that I think I have everything covered. I polished the slider trigger and sear and it has a smooth pull (although I couldn't take all the rust off)

I cant wait to get this all together and wiping out half the enemy team again...
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Old 02-22-2013, 10:28 PM #33
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I just used very high grit sand paper and elbow grease to polish my 3way. Be very careful when doing this; the line between a reliable, leak free, super smooth 3way and a constant leak that cannot be fixed is very thin. A little bit of Brasso would work great for finishing the brass off and make the outside of the pneumatics look amazing. I've never polished the inside of a ram before, there isn't much performance to be gained by doing it. Did you check all of Ravis site? I could swear that he explained how to do a trigger job on that 3way somewhere on that site. I used it to do mine.

You can get on/off ASA and elbows (45 degree adapter) just about anywhere online. If you get an on/off that uses a rail system, make sure you also get a rail.

When you asked if the Empire on/off would work, did you mean the Empire Nano on/off? If so yes it will work but will need a rail to attach the on/off to the frame. If you were talking about the Relay then no it will not work, it's mean't for the Invert Mini.

Some companies also make aluminum elbows, but they are very expensive compared to just buying a few plastic elbows. Make sure to buy a few though, the ones most places sells now a pretty fragile plastic compared to what use to be used.

I have everything you need besides the c-clips. You could probably find those at a hardware store. Besides that it would be easier to buy a second old 3way and just scavenge the c-clips from it.
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Old 02-22-2013, 11:25 PM #34
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I might actually have an old brass 3 way "with the clips" that I'll give you if I can find it...I'll try to remember to look tonight or tomorrow, if you don't hear from my by mid day tomorrow send me a PM on here.
As far as polishing the 3way and ram "internally", I wouldn't bother with it, just make sure the 3 way is clean inside so it's not sticky and let it ride...It's to easy to over polish a 3 way and then the thing will never seal up and will leak like crazy. I've never took a ram apart to polish it, not need as long as the action is still smooth and I don't think you'd really gain anything performance wise cause I'm doubting your gonna be shooting that fast enough to outrun the ram. Lube everything and as long as it's smooth and not sticking your good to go on that part.
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:14 PM #35
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Going after the stock 3way with some very high grit sand paper will do wonders to one of those 3ways. It's also helps to have a bag of 3way orings to try to fit the orings with the inserts in the 3way. Having an extra 3way or two in case you do over polish a part is a good idea. The one I did on my 98 Eclipse autococker is almost as smooth and short as my Hollowpoints. It's a real pain because of the c-clips and very easy to over polish, but the monotony is part of the fun in working with these really old cockers. It's also very rewarding once it's finally perfect and you know it's because you spent 3 hours getting it that way.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:47 PM #36
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I might actually have an old brass 3 way "with the clips" that I'll give you if I can find it...
Awesome man, Thank you. PMing!
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:52 PM #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minimag03 View Post
Did you check all of Ravis site? I could swear that he explained how to do a trigger job on that 3way somewhere on that site. I used it to do mine.

I have everything you need besides the c-clips. You could probably find those at a hardware store. Besides that it would be easier to buy a second old 3way and just scavenge the c-clips from it.
Thanks Mini, I keep going back to Ravi's site and finding more and more there.

I checked some of the hardware stores, even the non-big box store that has all the off the wall stuff and no one has them that small. I'll take your advice on the clips. Hopefully those wont disintegrate on me!

I'll PM you for the other things!
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Old 03-07-2013, 06:02 PM #38
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Just wanted to chime in here - you say you kept going thru bolt pins - it looks like your back block is possibly too far forward?
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:47 PM #39
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Just wanted to chime in here - you say you kept going thru bolt pins - it looks like your back block is possibly too far forward?
That may be a possibility... I remember eating these pins up. I in fact still have two on my bolt incase one's detents cease to be. Since the bolt had two spaces for this option I always assumed that this was a flaw with the bolt pins. Perhaps I was placing the back block too far forward and causing extra stress on the pins.. I will try it out and see what the results are. Thanks for the suggestion!
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:57 PM #40
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More than welcome!

general consensus is usually a few paper's width away from the body. I like to edge on the side of farther than closer.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:57 PM #41
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Ok All. I wanted to give you a heads up on my progress here.
Here is where I started.








I was really hoping to give you an astounding update with a video, however...
Here are the pretty pics before I tell you where I am at.






OK, so I cleaned every part, I polished the externals as well as the flat parts that come in contact with the slider trigger and replaced all the O-rings (except in the LPR because the Allan screws are stripped. Tonight I wanted to try this gun out. I picked up a cheap 3 way when I was already ordering some things. It is definitely different from the original.. First off I couldn't get the barbs to line up right. The 3 way I bought would screw in so far that the normal barbs were ill positioned and that lead me to a cable management issues.

Tonight I gassed up the gun for the first time in 10-13 years and I found some issues. I will post soon on what I found with this gun!
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Old 03-20-2013, 07:58 PM #42
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OK, On Friday I shot the Mini for the first time in about 10 years! I gassed it up and the LPR is leaking so bad even with a lower pressure than it would take to operate the gun that within 15 minutes I had depleted 2000PSI from my tank. I am going to send the LPR back to palmers for servicing.

I had to pick up a cheap 3-way because I couldn't find any internal retention clips for the original. The first ones fell apart when I removed them from the 3-way. I will get either the original going again or replace it with another brass 3-way.

Now the timing wasn't too far off. It fired, then cocked.. granted the velocity was almost minimal given the fact that the LPR was leaking so bad, but still.. Other than the LPR leaking so horribly the trigger was getting stuck in the back position. Since the trigger pull is super smooth, it is either a weak trigger spring or the fact that the 3-way is over pressurized somehow and it wont allow the trigger to move forward. Hopefully I will get it going this weekend thanks to Minimag03. We will see!

I cant wait to make this baby a real shooter again!!
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