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Old 04-01-2013, 09:26 PM #1
MikaelRyan
 
 
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NCPA, room for improvement?

Posted THIS blog pointing out some of the good things revolving the NCPA and a lot of bad things. I'm kind of curious if everyone views things this way or if my opinion is vastly different. I have the utmost respect for the NCPA, but I did also feel some commentary was necessary.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:43 PM #2
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While I'll agree that constructive criticism is good, particularly on the bit about promoting AA more, I saw far more accusations and complaints than suggestions. Some things deserve some explaining. AA is bigger than A by far; anyone that looks at APPA will see that. However, for Nationals, AA doesn't go on the webcast for practical reasons as well as not being as good TV.

Your points on the rules aren't entirely correct. To the best of my knowledge, NCPA has never kept people from using semi-auto. I've even read Raehl posting about an explanation that ramping rules such as those in the PSP do not prohibit the use of semi. I think I've also read from him that he would prefer semi only, but it would be difficult to detect for rule-keeping and wouldn't go over well with players. When the PSP did their period of having different divisions with different fire rates, the NCPA rules went with the lowest rate of 10.5 BPS, but never prohibited semi at all.
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Old 04-01-2013, 09:53 PM #3
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"the problem with having Class A and Class AA is that while the league might say Class AA is respective, it gets zero media attention, they donít even announce the national champs for AA half the time, and is thus displayed as a JV level for the league."

I believe there is great talent in AA and it is a shame that it never gets broadcasted.

"I donít argue against everything the NCPA has done for teams as far as helping create events and running nationals, but there is literally zero support for colleges to stick around."

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Old 04-01-2013, 10:18 PM #4
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Your points on the rules aren't entirely correct. To the best of my knowledge, NCPA has never kept people from using semi-auto. I've even read Raehl posting about an explanation that ramping rules such as those in the PSP do not prohibit the use of semi. I think I've also read from him that he would prefer semi only, but it would be difficult to detect for rule-keeping and wouldn't go over well with players. When the PSP did their period of having different divisions with different fire rates, the NCPA rules went with the lowest rate of 10.5 BPS, but never prohibited semi at all.
the exact quote is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dymium
For the FIRST EVENT ONLY in this division, we will do the following: 10.5 ramp -OR- semi with the debounce setting turned ALL THE WAY UP. This will have to be demonstrated to the event coordinator before the first game of play. I will be making myself available early to certify those of you shooting in semi and not ramp mode. Following event #1, this division will be 10.5 Ramp only. So, for your freshmen, have them send their boards to get flashed like you should have done 1 or two weeks ago.
link to that thread is HERE
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:32 AM #5
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As a player on that UW Madison team that got "STOMPED", that isn't why we left. Our school offered no support for us because we got grouped into student activity group that already had a paintball scene (woodsball).

Also, we only played one event at Class A. The team was comprised of about 10 of us that also focused most of our attention on PSP and other leagues and since the NCPA was not as well regarded back then.

NCPA is a great place to grow teamwork skills and get very competitive practice in for the national tournament scene. It is usually pretty cheap for a team and more schools are putting money into club sports for paintball.

But, as a player on that team, I just wanted to tell you the reason we stopped playing Class A was the lack of commitment (financially) and interest from our players to play the costlier division. Our team finally disbanded when most of the players focus shifted towards PSP/NPPL and we couldn't dedicate the resources to play NCPA.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:21 PM #6
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good to know, and I didnt mean to offend you. I was literally just relaying the information mentioned in meetings in the past. The explanation given during NCPA year end meetings was you joined, lost and quit because of it.

However your financial situation does further prove what I said about not having support from the NCPA for the teams that exist.
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Old 04-02-2013, 08:15 PM #7
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I was talking with a friend earlier about the webcast.. what if they showed the Class AA finals on the webcast? Similarly to how the PSP shows D4-D1 finals on Sunday, but they show the pros all weekend.

Just a thought
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:01 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrpntballer View Post
I was talking with a friend earlier about the webcast.. what if they showed the Class AA finals on the webcast? Similarly to how the PSP shows D4-D1 finals on Sunday, but they show the pros all weekend.

Just a thought
I'll be playing in the class A division but I don't see why this couldn't be a possibility. Personally I think that the 5 man games can be just as, if not more, interesting than the XBall games because teams are looking for that one edge to get them that first crucial point.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:24 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stingi17 View Post
I'll be playing in the class A division but I don't see why this couldn't be a possibility. Personally I think that the 5 man games can be just as, if not more, interesting than the XBall games because teams are looking for that one edge to get them that first crucial point.
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Old 04-02-2013, 11:19 PM #10
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Being able to even watch last years webcast would be cool too.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:15 AM #11
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If I had to make one recommendation for the NCPA it would be this:

Every conference (A and AA) should have a dedicated, consistent (in the sense that it's the same person year after year) non-student director/advisor.

This person's responsibilities would be:
-Find out each school's best dates during the year for events
-Pick the dates that work best for everyone
-Scope out the local fields that can host events and are centrally located
-Work with the school closest to that field (ideally it's that school's home field) to set up events
-Call each school in the conference once every 2 months or so just to make sure everything is going smoothly etc

Some of you may have noticed that's basically what I do and while it doesn't sound like much, that's mostly why the NEIC Class A conference has been around so long.

Why? Well it seems this is the general pattern:
-Get a Class A conference (this can also happen to Class AA confs)
-Come up with a schedule really late in the first semester as no one is co-ordinating the conference
-Everyone has to scramble to get funding
-Because everyone is scrambling, the president doesn't have time to delegate so he gets overworked
-As he gets more overworked, he gets pissed
-He decides to quit
-Since he was doing all the work, no one knows what to do and no one steps up
-Club falls apart and drops off the face of the earth
-The rest of the conference gets screwed and basically the above starts happening at other schools

A lot of the above goes away once you have a "Conference Dad" (for lack of a better term).

One thing I would also add, I currently do this mostly because if I didn't, one of the other schools in the NEIC would probably go into the death spiral mentioned above and I couldn't coach anymore.

Ideally, the NCPA would come up with some kind of money, influence, fame compensation combination to entice other "Conference Dads" e.g.
-You get your ticket to Nationals paid for
-The NCPA does some kind of recognition/award dinner at Nationals
-You get some kind of say in NCPA rules/decisions etc

The above would probably be only about $500-$600 per year but compare that to the cost of losing a conference team ($3,800 per year X the number of years that club is gone).
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:03 AM #12
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You quit because the league went to ramping, the lower division you played in gets less attention than the upper division, and a league probably running at a break even level (or worse) does not offer you scholarships for playing paintball. Does that more or less summarize what happened? Let's be realistic here - the NCPA is based on PSP rules, top divisions always get more attention, and there isn't money for scholarships. As I said in the PSP prize thread, if you want more money going to the players, I invite you to write the league a check. Until then, it's going to operate within its budget, and that doesn't include giving you money just for playing paintball.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:03 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eforce View Post
You quit because the league went to ramping, the lower division you played in gets less attention than the upper division, and a league probably running at a break even level (or worse) does not offer you scholarships for playing paintball. Does that more or less summarize what happened? Let's be realistic here - the NCPA is based on PSP rules, top divisions always get more attention, and there isn't money for scholarships. As I said in the PSP prize thread, if you want more money going to the players, I invite you to write the league a check. Until then, it's going to operate within its budget, and that doesn't include giving you money just for playing paintball.
Not totally. I quit because the league enforced ramping and i didnt have the money to buy a $200 board. That rule actually helped to decimate the Midwest North Division. The point of NCPA is to create competitive affordable play for college players.

My point on A vs AA is the League says that schools need to not be upset about being in AA but then they do nothing for the teams in AA. If you put all of your efforts behind A then dont ask why no one wants to play AA.

IDK how AA is ran at nationals now, but when i last went they rna it on 3 separate fields and the schedule became nonoperational (finish a game and sprint to the next field). I hope by now they've figured out they should just set up brackets for 1 field only.

Webcast for AA is pretty easy. just set up a camera at the field. you dont really need to announce it like you do for A.

Scholarships should be awarded through the NCPA with sponsor money. I dont expect them to be shelling out thousands of dollars but the fact that the league is this old and still hasn't found a way to workout some sort of sponsorship deal is kind of ludicrous. They have scholarships out there for the most minimal stuff these days and the NCPA can't manage to find a way to pay 1 semesters books for 10 players a year? And trust me if i ever manage to have a lot of money i'll be finding a way to fund some of that money back to college players.

---
Back to Alex, I agree with everything you have said. I know Brendan set up the Midwest North division that way to have standardized operational fees which included 5 cases of paint at one point in time.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:19 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikaelRyan View Post
Not totally. I quit because the league enforced ramping and i didnt have the money to buy a $200 board. That rule actually helped to decimate the Midwest North Division. The point of NCPA is to create competitive affordable play for college players.

My point on A vs AA is the League says that schools need to not be upset about being in AA but then they do nothing for the teams in AA. If you put all of your efforts behind A then dont ask why no one wants to play AA.

IDK how AA is ran at nationals now, but when i last went they rna it on 3 separate fields and the schedule became nonoperational (finish a game and sprint to the next field). I hope by now they've figured out they should just set up brackets for 1 field only.

Webcast for AA is pretty easy. just set up a camera at the field. you dont really need to announce it like you do for A.

Scholarships should be awarded through the NCPA with sponsor money. I dont expect them to be shelling out thousands of dollars but the fact that the league is this old and still hasn't found a way to workout some sort of sponsorship deal is kind of ludicrous. They have scholarships out there for the most minimal stuff these days and the NCPA can't manage to find a way to pay 1 semesters books for 10 players a year? And trust me if i ever manage to have a lot of money i'll be finding a way to fund some of that money back to college players.

---
Back to Alex, I agree with everything you have said. I know Brendan set up the Midwest North division that way to have standardized operational fees which included 5 cases of paint at one point in time.
I am sorry but i fail to see any validity in your point. The rule stated to this day is that if your gun does not ramp, you have to use semi set to the lowest debounce setting.

If you want to even see class AA on tv you need to do a race to like the lower divisions in psp, play all three games in a row. (or 2) Stop playing the rotation of teams, i personally think this is stupid and can cause you to lose momentum in one match because of a loss in another.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:19 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Elliott View Post
If I had to make one recommendation for the NCPA it would be this:

Every conference (A and AA) should have a dedicated, consistent (in the sense that it's the same person year after year) non-student director/advisor.

This person's responsibilities would be:
-Find out each school's best dates during the year for events
-Pick the dates that work best for everyone
-Scope out the local fields that can host events and are centrally located
-Work with the school closest to that field (ideally it's that school's home field) to set up events
-Call each school in the conference once every 2 months or so just to make sure everything is going smoothly etc

Some of you may have noticed that's basically what I do and while it doesn't sound like much, that's mostly why the NEIC Class A conference has been around so long.

Why? Well it seems this is the general pattern:
-Get a Class A conference (this can also happen to Class AA confs)
-Come up with a schedule really late in the first semester as no one is co-ordinating the conference
-Everyone has to scramble to get funding
-Because everyone is scrambling, the president doesn't have time to delegate so he gets overworked
-As he gets more overworked, he gets pissed
-He decides to quit
-Since he was doing all the work, no one knows what to do and no one steps up
-Club falls apart and drops off the face of the earth
-The rest of the conference gets screwed and basically the above starts happening at other schools

A lot of the above goes away once you have a "Conference Dad" (for lack of a better term).

One thing I would also add, I currently do this mostly because if I didn't, one of the other schools in the NEIC would probably go into the death spiral mentioned above and I couldn't coach anymore.

Ideally, the NCPA would come up with some kind of money, influence, fame compensation combination to entice other "Conference Dads" e.g.
-You get your ticket to Nationals paid for
-The NCPA does some kind of recognition/award dinner at Nationals
-You get some kind of say in NCPA rules/decisions etc

The above would probably be only about $500-$600 per year but compare that to the cost of losing a conference team ($3,800 per year X the number of years that club is gone).
and ncpa website could use an update!
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Last edited by daveumasspaint : 04-03-2013 at 06:24 PM.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:13 PM #16
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Nationals Attendance:
2009 - Last year of official semi only - 16 Class A teams / 54 AA
2010 - first year of PSP ramp, and 10.5 cap - 18 Class A teams / 49 AA
2011 - 12.5 cap - 18 Class A teams / 53 AA
2012 - No major changes iirc - 15 A teams / 48 AA

Edit - So I disagree that the ROF rules affect attendance. You didn't have $200 for a new board, but what about the semi/debounce option, or $10 to ship your board out to the manufacturer? Maybe you just didn't want to play that badly. "Forced rule changes" don't really preclude anyone from participating. Then the hubub came up with the no-padded jersey rule. Rules aren't made or changed to cripple the league. I don't think anyone quit for ROF or old jerseys.

Failed support of teams is certainly something to delve deeper into, given the recent volatile nature of Class A conference participants. I can say that for the NEIC, getting "stomped in the first two events and then quit playing altogether" is not what happens. Without actually knowing the causes for teams to drop-out of playing, I'd speculate it's more from overall lack of motivation/organization/money (speaking very generally). Alex addresses this above, well and much more in depth.

Edit - Regarding scholarships. League dues are put in by each school to run events, pay staff, and fund Nationals. I honestly don't know where you think money is coming from that can pay for ten thousand dollars of books when, as already mentioned, the NCPA barely breaks even, or worse.

I agree, it would be cool to see some sort of exposure for AA guys. Class A is certainly more spectator friendly (imo) but I I'd like to see what costs/logistical issues would have to be overcome to implement this, even just on Sunday, before I make any claims that it needs to happen. My speculation is that it's possible if we work towards it.

Last edited by azndave : 04-03-2013 at 07:26 PM.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:52 PM #17
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you all really can't read can you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dymium
For the FIRST EVENT ONLY in this division, we will do the following: 10.5 ramp -OR- semi with the debounce setting turned ALL THE WAY UP. This will have to be demonstrated to the event coordinator before the first game of play. I will be making myself available early to certify those of you shooting in semi and not ramp mode. Following event #1, this division will be 10.5 Ramp only. So, for your freshmen, have them send their boards to get flashed like you should have done 1 or two weeks ago.
the link to the thread where that was mentioned is HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

it specifically states post event 1 it will be 10.5 ramp ONLY!!!!! that means SEMI-AUTO was NOT ALLOWED.

i bolded and capitalized some of the highlights to make it more clear.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:53 PM #18
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At least a mention of who won the AA title would be nice. They did it in previous years, and the props would be well appreciated. I understand that they might not be able to fit in another game into the webcast schedule, but I dont think a quick shot of the winning team between xball points would be unreasonable.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:54 PM #19
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sorry man that thread is soo outdated.. its the rules me and dave stated.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:01 PM #20
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sorry man that thread is soo outdated.. its the rules me and dave stated.
fair enough, but that's what i dealt with during my last year. It's good they switched it back to either or, but that didn't help me during my final season.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:12 PM #21
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Mikael you deleted a post just now. I was referring to Nationals participation numbers, but where were you pulling numbers for season play?

Also, regarding scholarships, it's a matter of how much money is already going into the NCPA from league sponsors. I'm sure Dye and Empire already have decent dough invested in the league, hence their logos on the TV field, and at that point I imagine it just comes down to a business decision.

As for progression and evolution, I personally think the move to PSP ramping three years ago helped teams have consistent practices, and the webcasts two years running were a huge leap forward for exposure. The only thing I would like to see improve is more consistent conference-season participation and growth. I understand geographically this can be an issue, so the question is, how do we reach out to new schools to build regions lacking teams?
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