Find fields & stores near you!
Find fields and stores
Zipcode
PbNation News
PbNation News
Community Focus
Community Focus

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-18-2013, 06:56 AM #631
Christian P
UWL and Scenario
 
Christian P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Pittsburgh, Pa
Christian P is playing at Living Legends VI
Christian P is playing at Living Legends VII
Christian P has achieved Level 2 in PbNation Pursuit
Christian P is attending Decay of Nations VII
I would bet that most markers are 10 to 12 machined parts. I would dare to say, much more is spent in development and prototyping with an amitorized volume in the 1,000 units, if not higher, just to break even.
Christian P is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 07:53 AM #632
JUJU
Eat it BEEOTCHES
 
JUJU's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Midwest
Annual Supporting Member
JUJU is a founding member
 has been a member for 10 years
JUJU plays in the PSP
JUJU plays in the APPA D4 division
Just glad we only have one week to fricken wait.
__________________
Certified Tech-Empire, Planet Eclipse Ego and Geo, Bob Long G6R, DYE DM13 and DAM, MACDEV Clone GT, GOG, Vanguard.

Contact me on deals for the new Vanquish or Impulse

KW Factory & RIOT Paintball Team

KW Paintball Field Owner
www.kwpaintball.com
JUJU is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:38 AM #633
White Devil
El Jefe
 
White Devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Northern Virginia
Annual Supporting Member
White Devil supports Team VICIOUS
White Devil posts videos on PbNation
White Devil supports Pev's Paintball
Quote:
Originally Posted by JUJU View Post
Just glad we only have one week to fricken wait.
Ain't that the truth.
__________________


White Devil is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:04 AM #634
PaulE2Cocker
 
 
PaulE2Cocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
PaulE2Cocker owns a Planet Eclipse CSL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian P View Post
I'm saying if the gun costs $200 to make, at a 4x multiplier that gives you a $1000 price tag, more people will be purchasing it. If you have a 8x multiplier, while your going to make more, less people can afford a $1600 gun. Make less but have a larger pool of customers.

Its J4's product, I'm sure they know what they have and will price it accordingly.

Its not my call, I just added my opinion. Take it or leave it. I do hope J4 does well. However this hobby only grows if its affordable since 40% of the players are kids under 18 with a limited income. Another 30% are under 25 and make under $40k a year from what i've seen. Those two age groups are 70% of all players and they can't afford a $1,000 our more expensive gun. Counting on mommy and daddy to buy it for them isn't a realistic option if your business plan is asking, "who is our target demographic and what can they afford?"
Okay let's clear the air here.
I spoke and saw josh this weekend the gun is coming along nicely haven't seen a product so I'm still waiting like you guys but I've seen the cad images and it is nice....

Now I want to talk price you say you won't spend a 1000$ and u give percentages like crazy on types of players but I Guarantee you josh and his company have been in the sport and are well aware of what it takes to sell products. And they know how to satisfy a customer with a functioning an durable gun not some cheesy plastic beast that u dive once and half the frame is tweaked. Now with that being said they have their eyes set on long term goals not just build a gun and disappear. They will have something that pleases everyone from rec. ball all the way to the d1 guys so just be patient and just because this ones not your price point(which you don't know yet) doesn't mean you shouldn't keep your eyes on them. There thought process and tight lipped operation allows them to make changes through trial and error before showing the public one gun then two months later release something completely different. Common sense right.



Also josh mr president is asking about warranty if you read this or his first good question I thought.
__________________
Gun questions or problems contact me at paul@j4pbsupport.com


Quoted from the great Simon Stevens
"The freak is 15 year old technology and ideas. The idea that we havent learnt anything since then is ridiculous"
PaulE2Cocker is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:04 AM #635
bulzeye
 
 
bulzeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: oregon
bulzeye is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
bulzeye donated to help Peyton Trent
bulzeye supports Team VICIOUS
bulzeye is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian P View Post
I'm saying if the gun costs $200 to make, at a 4x multiplier that gives you a $1000 price tag, more people will be purchasing it. If you have a 8x multiplier, while your going to make more, less people can afford a $1600 gun. Make less but have a larger pool of customers.
you are also forgetting they need to make a profit, the wholesaler needs to make a profit (if there is a wholesaler), and the retailer needs to make a profit.
__________________
Navy/Sky Blue NT11

KILLA$ KREW
UnspokeN
Old School Feedback
bulzeye is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:15 AM #636
tweeter4
Quinn Nadu
 
tweeter4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lancaster PA
Annual Supporting Member
tweeter4 posts videos on PbNation
tweeter4 is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
tweeter4 is Boss
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWayz View Post
No marker costs $200 to make unless it is cast
Especially if it has crazy milling which takes more time to laith...

If they do their machining inhouse it will probably costs about $800 to make?
If they farm it out to Taiwan / China probably $50.
Those numbers are pretty violently skewed. I mill bodies frequently. Material isnt very expensive, and once you have the CNC programmed the computer does all the work.

The most expensive process is R&D. Thats where companies need to make back there money. Pumping out units isn't the expensive part.

Most people neglect to understand though that if this gun sells for $1000, roughly $150-$200 probobly goes into making the physical unit, they will proboly use about a $100 markup for overhead coverage, cover all their shipping and utilities for the month, then sell to a retailer for $750-$800. So all in all the producer isn't making a ton.

Thats assuming large material cost though. I can machine a body identical to any body on the market for $30 in material. They proboly get it significantly cheaper.
tweeter4 is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:19 AM #637
bulzeye
 
 
bulzeye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: oregon
bulzeye is a Supporting Member
 has been a member for 10 years
bulzeye donated to help Peyton Trent
bulzeye supports Team VICIOUS
bulzeye is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeter4 View Post
Those numbers are pretty violently skewed. I mill bodies frequently. Material isnt very expensive, and once you have the CNC programmed the computer does all the work.

The most expensive process is R&D. Thats where companies need to make back there money. Pumping out units isn't the expensive part.

Most people neglect to understand though that if this gun sells for $1000, roughly $150-$200 probobly goes into making the physical unit, they will proboly use about a $100 markup for overhead coverage, cover all their shipping and utilities for the month, then sell to a retailer for $750-$800. So all in all the producer isn't making a ton.

Thats assuming large material cost though. I can machine a body identical to any body on the market for $30 in material. They proboly get it significantly cheaper.
so what you are saying is if I go to a machine shop with a cad program it would only cost me about $200 including the block of aluminum to have a marker milled?
__________________
Navy/Sky Blue NT11

KILLA$ KREW
UnspokeN
Old School Feedback
bulzeye is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:25 AM #638
WildWayz
The Moose God
 
WildWayz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: UK
Annual Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweeter4 View Post
Those numbers are pretty violently skewed. I mill bodies frequently. Material isnt very expensive, and once you have the CNC programmed the computer does all the work.

The most expensive process is R&D. Thats where companies need to make back there money. Pumping out units isn't the expensive part.

Most people neglect to understand though that if this gun sells for $1000, roughly $150-$200 probobly goes into making the physical unit, they will proboly use about a $100 markup for overhead coverage, cover all their shipping and utilities for the month, then sell to a retailer for $750-$800. So all in all the producer isn't making a ton.

Thats assuming large material cost though. I can machine a body identical to any body on the market for $30 in material. They proboly get it significantly cheaper.
No, not skewed... by the time you pay for all the orings, boards (of which they aren't heavily discounted), anodizing, materials, screws, barrels, time etc it brings it up.

I've been and seen the machining of a popular marker, and from memory, the company said they can turn out about 1 marker a day using their CNC machines (obviously, they do a run of everything so a day doing x, next day doing y - but total time is approx 14hours). 1 machine can work on 1 thing... so they'd do a run of bolts run of hprs, run of lprs, run of bodies, run of manifolds etc
Then someone needs to ship the marker parts to the anodisers (not usually done inhouse), pay for shipping back, build the markers, lube them, pay packaging, throw in some bottle openers and by that is over, all is good to go!

Would be cheaper to do it in a factory... but hey-ho.
__________________
For Freelance 3D Rendering Services, Manual Writing Service or Setting Up Support Ticket Systems visit here: My Services Thread
Progress Paintball - UK Sales and Support Thread - UK Dealer and Unofficial Service Center for Bob Long and Machine Paintball.

Clubs: Marq Clan | Insight Owners Group
WildWayz is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:25 AM #639
PaulE2Cocker
 
 
PaulE2Cocker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
PaulE2Cocker owns a Planet Eclipse CSL
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulzeye View Post

so what you are saying is if I go to a machine shop with a cad program it would only cost me about $200 including the block of aluminum to have a marker milled?
I would assume his count is in bulk if your making just a single item cost would be more since setup would only be one gun vs 200 they would have to make a profit somewhere so cost of one individuals would be more
__________________
Gun questions or problems contact me at paul@j4pbsupport.com


Quoted from the great Simon Stevens
"The freak is 15 year old technology and ideas. The idea that we havent learnt anything since then is ridiculous"
PaulE2Cocker is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:29 AM #640
tweeter4
Quinn Nadu
 
tweeter4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lancaster PA
Annual Supporting Member
tweeter4 posts videos on PbNation
tweeter4 is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
tweeter4 is Boss
Quote:
Originally Posted by bulzeye View Post
so what you are saying is if I go to a machine shop with a cad program it would only cost me about $200 including the block of aluminum to have a marker milled?
Im not saying that at all, obviously a machine shop needs to make money. Im talking about it currently owning and using your own machine. I always thought charges for labor with machining were a bit out there, outside of designing the piece and implementing it the the CNC machine, the user doesnt have much labor. For the items I machine the only time I touch it really is when its done or needs re-positioned.

And, pretty easy to assume your going to come back saying that they need to cover the cost of the machine, but I have never heard of a company doing so. A machine is a purchase for business operations, and since it depreciates you can never treacly value it as a deduction from revenue. Most shops just add-on the costs of utilities and indirect materials from the machiine.
tweeter4 is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:35 AM #641
tweeter4
Quinn Nadu
 
tweeter4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lancaster PA
Annual Supporting Member
tweeter4 posts videos on PbNation
tweeter4 is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
tweeter4 is Boss
Quote:
Originally Posted by WildWayz View Post
No, not skewed... by the time you pay for all the orings, boards (of which they aren't heavily discounted), anodizing, materials, screws, barrels, time etc it brings it up.

I've been and seen the machining of a popular marker, and from memory, the company said they can turn out about 1 marker a day using their CNC machines (obviously, they do a run of everything so a day doing x, next day doing y - but total time is approx 14hours). 1 machine can work on 1 thing... so they'd do a run of bolts run of hprs, run of lprs, run of bodies, run of manifolds etc
Then someone needs to ship the marker parts to the anodisers (not usually done inhouse), pay for shipping back, build the markers, lube them, pay packaging, throw in some bottle openers and by that is over, all is good to go!

Would be cheaper to do it in a factory... but hey-ho.

Many parts on done on different machines. The bulk of the machining on rounded items such as LPRs, HPRs, Barrels, Bolts etc can be done on a CNC Lathe, this can happen while someone is also running the mill cutting out bodies.


Orings and fastners amount to less than a dollar per marker if buying in bulk. Creating a board in house can be done relatively cheap as well, assuming they are creating their own circuit boards.

The most expensive part of this marker is proboily going to come from them using other companies software, and barrels assuming they do
tweeter4 is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:55 AM #642
_slash_1
gun fixer
 
_slash_1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: vancouver CANADA
 has been a member for 10 years
_slash_1 plays in the USPL
_slash_1 plays in the PSP
_slash_1 posts videos on PbNation
looking forward to seeing this in person next week!
__________________
Check out the VANCOUVER PAINTBALL LEAGUE by clicking here!
BURNT/AMBUSHPAINTBALL.COM/JOINT FORCE
SPONSORS: AMBUSH / MACDEV / EMPIRE / PBRACK / PAINTBALLGEAR.CA

PLANET ECLIPSE / DYE / CP / VANGUARD / PROPHECY CERTIFIED TECH & BOB LONG ENTHUSIAST + i can fix anything that shoots
I may not be a professional player but i make a living playing paintball.
_slash_1 is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:15 PM #643
J4 Paintball
Commandant
 
J4 Paintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Annual Supporting Member
J4 Paintball works for a Paintball manufacturer
Just a comment on pricing:

Normal machine shop rates are about $70 per hour for runs plus cost of material, and a marker body can take a few hours to cut, though less if the design is smart or other cost savings have gone into it, say simpler machining, or reducing the long internal holes, or reducing part count.

Using extruded bodies, for something like a Spyder, can reduce costs also, same with cast bodies, or plastic gripframes.

There are no extruded, plastic, or cast parts on this gun. Short of the grip covers.

Also, the American Dollar is at a low right now, and Asia is not much cheaper then the US or related. A bit, but previous work with them (not this project) we have found that the best result out of the gate would be from the machining stucture we have setup currently, with a shop that has both experience with paintball equipment and an interest in this project.

On the warranty side, we will at first be testing and assembling all the guns inhouse, and repairs will be done there or at one of a range of service centers ot with service techs. The marker is rather simple though, and most maintainence should be within the hands of the customer.

For repairs or related, I am reminded of an old Tippmann story (and this is an OLD story).

A guy sent a gun to Tippmann. His wife had gotten pissed at being a paintball widow. She took a hammer to his gun.

Dennis sent him a new gun, and sent the wife flowers.

While we are just starting up, we want to try hard to follow in the footsteps of Tippmann and others to work quickly to take care of any problems, and also make it easy for the individual and store to work on the product also.

That is where we come from. The people involved with this are, well, paintball geeks. Last night I was handed a vapor that would fire when aired up! I HAD to know why, so I tore it apart, looked at what was going on, and figured out it was an o-ring. I also had a micro cocker (Paul's) in hand, and figured out a timing issue.

The about us page I think says it right. We are geeks and tinkerers.
__________________
www.j4paintball.com

J4 Paintball on Facebook

‎"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
~ R. Buckminster Fuller
J4 Paintball is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:29 PM #644
tweeter4
Quinn Nadu
 
tweeter4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lancaster PA
Annual Supporting Member
tweeter4 posts videos on PbNation
tweeter4 is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
tweeter4 is Boss
Not to sound out there but do you have a close relationship with your machinist? I have found through trial and error when I used to use machine shops, they tend to find ways to make milling take awhile.

A few hours for one body is pretty hefty, I would talk to your machinist to see if optimization can occur.

Of course I am in no way a marker manufactuer, but from doing things on my own machines I can get some pretty complicated work done in an hour.
tweeter4 is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:57 PM #645
J4 Paintball
Commandant
 
J4 Paintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Annual Supporting Member
J4 Paintball works for a Paintball manufacturer
I wasn't talking about hours on the machine for my body. We designed it to be considerably less for production runs.

Just trying to show that complex milling and design can result in a 'high end' price quickly, and that just having it made is Asia is not always a solution, nor is there the huge multiplier that is suggested. Well, not in every case.
__________________
www.j4paintball.com

J4 Paintball on Facebook

‎"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
~ R. Buckminster Fuller
J4 Paintball is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 02:28 PM #646
tweeter4
Quinn Nadu
 
tweeter4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Lancaster PA
Annual Supporting Member
tweeter4 posts videos on PbNation
tweeter4 is one of the top 1000 posters on PbNation
tweeter4 is Boss
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
I wasn't talking about hours on the machine for my body. We designed it to be considerably less for production runs.

Just trying to show that complex milling and design can result in a 'high end' price quickly, and that just having it made is Asia is not always a solution, nor is there the huge multiplier that is suggested. Well, not in every case.
Oh yeah, im completley along side you, as a manufactuer myself I understand how machining prices can stack up rather quickly.

And I am very happy to see your not outsourcing. We all know what happens when you let Asian companies cut corners to increase their machining profits, cough...Zodiac.

This is deffinatley going to be my first brand new purchase I've made in awhile. Normally I like to buy used but I want to support a company that looks like they finally got it right
tweeter4 is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 05:48 PM #647
D1PP1N
 
 
D1PP1N's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Aurora, IL
Annual Supporting Member
D1PP1N has achieved Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
D1PP1N has perfected Level 1 in PbNation Pursuit
D1PP1N supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
Last night I was handed a vapor that would fire when aired up! I HAD to know why, so I tore it apart, looked at what was going on, and figured out it was an o-ring. I also had a micro cocker (Paul's) in hand, and figured out a timing issue.

The about us page I think says it right. We are geeks and tinkerers.
My NT10 would fire approx 3-6 times on gas up. If you had your hopper on and you were about to chrono you had an epic mess to clean up. Sent it in twice and it still did the same thing, the 3rd time it got fixed but i sold it immediately after it was fixed. After 4 months of dicking around with that stupid gun and never getting to actually play with it I cut my losses and bought luxes. Happy camper ever since since they haven't went down on me. That said, im gonna be in the market for a little more efficient gun on the lower side of highend for my next purchase so this is looking promising!

Last edited by D1PP1N : 02-18-2013 at 06:22 PM.
D1PP1N is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 06:04 PM #648
Deathwish_DW
Becker PB / Two Fat Guys
 
Deathwish_DW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Annual Supporting Member
Deathwish_DW helped look for balloons
Deathwish_DW is playing at Living Legends III
Deathwish_DW is playing at Living Legends VII
Deathwish_DW supports Sherwood Forest
Deathwish_DW is Legendary
Deathwish_DW supports DLX Technology
Josh, I hope the "team" gets this bad boy rocking for the reveal.
I know you have some excellent minds at work including your own.

No Pressure
__________________
Becker Paintball & Two Fat Guys
(7Zero8)-9Five4-6Eight55
Becker@BeckerPaintball.com


Proud Dealer of: J4 Paintball - Bob Long - DLX - Ninja Paintball - GOG Deadlywind - Valken - MacDev - Inception Designs - Sterling / Arrow Precision
*!* eBay◄2346+ PBNation◄310+ *!*
Deathwish_DW is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:19 PM #649
J4 Paintball
Commandant
 
J4 Paintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Annual Supporting Member
J4 Paintball works for a Paintball manufacturer
Quote:
Josh, I hope the "team" gets this bad boy rocking for the reveal.
Well, Murphy did sneak up on us really good - and he had both barrels loaded. I am surprised really how good the team has taken this and killed the problems. So while we are not as prepared for PBE as planned, I know they will bunker down in a pinch and I can trust them to solve almost any problem short of time. And even then, they cheat.

There is so much talent and experience on tap I (Josh) am not always the heavy hitter. While it may take a month for everything to jell, we have a very solid plan, a solid marker, far more experience and talent on tap then a company needs. We are set to run lean and mean and not kill the business because we are acting like millionaires, while still having a personal and direct touch with the company, because, in the end we did this because we love it.

We love going out to the fields, love working on guns, love helping the newbies out, we love this sport. I have had 20 years+ playing/teching/working this sport. We want the next 20 to be even more involved. This may not be the perfect start, but it is the start. And we know it will be crazy for a bit. But in the end, we will be doing what we have been working on for nearly a decade - building paintball guns.

We are all very excited and driven, not by a payout, but by knowing this is what we want as the day job. And compared to the day job, where I am a Senior Designer with a couple designers, an engineer or two, a couple draftsman under me and running jobs as large as $200+million dollars, this should be easy. And it gives us an excuse to play a lot more paintball. Win-win.
__________________
www.j4paintball.com

J4 Paintball on Facebook

‎"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
~ R. Buckminster Fuller
J4 Paintball is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:33 PM #650
Deathwish_DW
Becker PB / Two Fat Guys
 
Deathwish_DW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Annual Supporting Member
Deathwish_DW helped look for balloons
Deathwish_DW is playing at Living Legends III
Deathwish_DW is playing at Living Legends VII
Deathwish_DW supports Sherwood Forest
Deathwish_DW is Legendary
Deathwish_DW supports DLX Technology
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
Well, Murphy did sneak up on us really good - and he had both barrels loaded. I am surprised really how good the team has taken this and killed the problems. So while we are not as prepared for PBE as planned, I know they will bunker down in a pinch and I can trust them to solve almost any problem short of time. And even then, they cheat.

There is so much talent and experience on tap I (Josh) am not always the heavy hitter. While it may take a month for everything to jell, we have a very solid plan, a solid marker, far more experience and talent on tap then a company needs. We are set to run lean and mean and not kill the business because we are acting like millionaires, while still having a personal and direct touch with the company, because, in the end we did this because we love it.

We love going out to the fields, love working on guns, love helping the newbies out, we love this sport. I have had 20 years+ playing/teching/working this sport. We want the next 20 to be even more involved. This may not be the perfect start, but it is the start. And we know it will be crazy for a bit. But in the end, we will be doing what we have been working on for nearly a decade - building paintball guns.

We are all very excited and driven, not by a payout, but by knowing this is what we want as the day job. And compared to the day job, where I am a Senior Designer with a couple designers, an engineer or two, a couple draftsman under me and running jobs as large as $200+million dollars, this should be easy. And it gives us an excuse to play a lot more paintball. Win-win.
That's how it always is. Random ****. Ask Jonathan :p "damn orings".

The above statement.. it encompasses the ideal. This is how it should be. You realize that money isn't the question - it'll happen, so you actually focus on what you want to get done. I am glad that there is at least one company with a marker coming out that is driven by these very principles. Hopefully I can see you guys on the field one day
__________________
Becker Paintball & Two Fat Guys
(7Zero8)-9Five4-6Eight55
Becker@BeckerPaintball.com


Proud Dealer of: J4 Paintball - Bob Long - DLX - Ninja Paintball - GOG Deadlywind - Valken - MacDev - Inception Designs - Sterling / Arrow Precision
*!* eBay◄2346+ PBNation◄310+ *!*
Deathwish_DW is offline  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:06 PM #651
J4 Paintball
Commandant
 
J4 Paintball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Corpus Christi, TX
Annual Supporting Member
J4 Paintball works for a Paintball manufacturer
Quote:
Hopefully I can see you guys on the field one day
If, over the next year, all the business does is pay for us to play more paintball and we have to keep our dayjobs, but get to goto Living Legends, PSP and NPPL events, hit D-Day, we are all right with that.
__________________
www.j4paintball.com

J4 Paintball on Facebook

‎"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."
~ R. Buckminster Fuller

Last edited by J4 Paintball : 02-18-2013 at 10:52 PM.
J4 Paintball is offline  
Closed Thread


Paintball News Rules
  1. No Upping threads. If you have something to say, please do, but don't post in the thread just to take it to the top of the forum.
  2. Do not post "1st post", "1st", "First post" or anything similar (or with any other number) at any point in a thread, even if you post a comment too. It is really annoying and it will result in a ban.
  3. If you don't like something, say why instead of just calling it ugly, lame, gay or any other name. If it is old, simply post a link or report the post with a link to the older News thread.
  4. Please don't post links for places to buy items. That encourages stores, sponsored players and other people to do it and spam the site.
If you have questions, please post them in the Talk to Mods/Admins forum.

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
Forum Jump