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Old 02-05-2013, 08:11 PM #295
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Originally Posted by papaintballer15 View Post
I dunno guys...
[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tBRtwbHJyEM/THh2BVqsWQI/AAAAAAAAAnE/wkIDSoeJupk/s1600/flashflood6.jpg[/MG]

This is clearly it.
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Old 02-05-2013, 08:32 PM #296
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Originally Posted by NeCanes View Post
This picture doesn't seem to fit with the description. This was my initial thought on how to make a stacked tube spool valve marker. The problem from what I see is that this design would have velocity effected by dwell. It appears to not have a closed dump chamber when firing. In order for dwell to not effect velocity, it makes sense that the dump chamber on the final design will be sealed. It almost looks like the middle of the spool/ram would seal the front of the valve when in the fully open state, but that has a couple functional problems, including basically two burst of air per cycle.

In some of the patent pictures the air supply enters from the front and a longer ram also seals off the air supply in the forward cycle, which would fit the description a bit better.

My question then turns to to how close functionally the CAD rendering is of the final design or if I'm simply misunderstanding how the marker cycles?
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Old 02-05-2013, 09:02 PM #297
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seems to me the edge (in red circle) creates the forward cycle seal. On return as it goes back that pulls the front one as air comes through. When at rest position in the back, the front edge then seals the front end of the chamber. Boxes to show internal edges of air chamber.

edit: perhaps the front box should of been back further, I was in a hurry to try and not miss tonights episode of faceoff

Last edited by papaintballer15 : 02-05-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:43 PM #298
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The pic above is actually for a fired shot - the bolt and such is all the way forward... That is showing where the air is moving back through the piston to go into the bolt. If you notice, and here is a big hint....

There is nothing else in the front of the gun. Because... that is where the air chamber is. The front and foregrip are both just air chambers.

But that is not what I came on here to post. I came here for a pricing announcement.

1) It will be.....less then a Vapor! We almost promise! That is $400 off our original completely false price!! And it might go down still!

2)PRICING! Pricing? You want to know what the price will be? Do you? Really? There is one way you can find out first: sales@j4pb.com

Have your local store (or if you ARE a store...well, a store owner) send us an email! To sales@j4pb.com Stores will get the pricing before internet release, so they will know (and be allowed to tell walk in customers) before we tell you here in Facebook. Yes, this is totally a ploy to get stores signed up. But hey, at least we told you. And you get to know first. Win-win, right?

Remember: sales@j4pb.com
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:59 PM #299
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Cant wait to see this marker! Really interested in the design of it.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:28 PM #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by papaintballer15 View Post


seems to me the edge (in red circle) creates the forward cycle seal. On return as it goes back that pulls the front one as air comes through. When at rest position in the back, the front edge then seals the front end of the chamber. Boxes to show internal edges of air chamber.

edit: perhaps the front box should of been back further, I was in a hurry to try and not miss tonights episode of faceoff
The problem with that idea is that you trap air between the front piston and the rear so when the bolt cycles back you get a second pop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4 Paintball View Post
The pic above is actually for a fired shot - the bolt and such is all the way forward... That is showing where the air is moving back through the piston to go into the bolt. If you notice, and here is a big hint....

There is nothing else in the front of the gun. Because... that is where the air chamber is. The front and foregrip are both just air chambers.

But that is not what I came on here to post. I came here for a pricing announcement.

1) It will be.....less then a Vapor! We almost promise! That is $400 off our original completely false price!! And it might go down still!

2)PRICING! Pricing? You want to know what the price will be? Do you? Really? There is one way you can find out first: sales@j4pb.com

Have your local store (or if you ARE a store...well, a store owner) send us an email! To sales@j4pb.com Stores will get the pricing before internet release, so they will know (and be allowed to tell walk in customers) before we tell you here in Facebook. Yes, this is totally a ploy to get stores signed up. But hey, at least we told you. And you get to know first. Win-win, right?

Remember: sales@j4pb.com
So then how does dwell not effect fps? I'm confused on that concept because looks like a fairly simple unbalanced spool with an open dump chamber? It doesn't matter anyways, if your pricing is anywhere close to a Vapor you are well over my price point.
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Old 02-05-2013, 11:36 PM #301
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:26 AM #302
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It doesn't matter anyways, if your pricing is anywhere close to a Vapor you are well over my price point.
So, just for you, we make it lower? Deal? Works for us. Now, how much lower... we will see.

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J4 to be an exhibitor at the upcoming Paintball Extravaganza - come see their new marker.
I have to say, the PBE event is letting us reach so many stores and dealers we never would have the chance to meet. Every other email from a store is "Are you going to be at PBE?"

I think 500 bags of swag isn't going to be enough. Thanks for the venue Rick!
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:40 AM #303
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Old 02-06-2013, 02:46 AM #304
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Another high end, good the market was getting low on those.

There seems to be some issues with it, this gun was torn apart in the shocker club. Firstly, the gun is during its forward cycle
and the ram isn't actually one piece. The lower piece is two pieces. The back is a guide, and the forwards and backwards is balanced and on the inside, it is the only way we could figure to make it work.
However, the problem with that is if your not cycling fast enough and don't calculate it right, you'll get **** efficiency.

Last edited by Paper_Cut : 02-06-2013 at 02:50 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 08:26 AM #305
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Originally Posted by Paper_Cut View Post
Another high end, good the market was getting low on those.

There seems to be some issues with it, this gun was torn apart in the shocker club. Firstly, the gun is during its forward cycle
and the ram isn't actually one piece. The lower piece is two pieces. The back is a guide, and the forwards and backwards is balanced and on the inside, it is the only way we could figure to make it work.
However, the problem with that is if your not cycling fast enough and don't calculate it right, you'll get **** efficiency.
The rear o-ring (not the one on the guide) only serves to move the spool forward. The front section is not balanced and once the pressure is removed from the rear, the spool will return back.

The reason you can't over dwell the gun is because of the hall effects sensor which tells the board where the bolt is. Once it's reached a certain point the board shuts off the dwell even if it's less than what you have the board set to. So if you set your dwell to 100 ms, it will activate the noid for 100 ms or until the HE sensor tells it the bolt has reached the desired position.

I expect more from you shocker guys...
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Old 02-06-2013, 09:56 AM #306
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Gisgo09/Papercut - you guys are really close! We are really enjoying the offbeat remarks that are wrong, but you guys are getting really close.

The are three tricks in there that were not shown. The clue is: this gun works from a completely manual action also. The solenoid can be replaced (and has) with a MSV-2.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:11 AM #307
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:22 AM #308
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Don't get me wrong, 1600 shots is good for a spoolie and there are plenty of people out there willing to pay extra for aesthetic features like a 'smooth' shot, shiny colors, unique 'engine', or a pretty milling job.

Guess I was just really hoping for some new tech that improved performance or at least a marker with good efficiency. Definitely disappointed in Josh's posts which indicate it's nothing innovative and it's just an iterative product designed to fund the next gun.

I know. I know. Your company motto; Don't like it? Don't buy it. I'll reserve judgement until the PBE release. Even if still disappointing, I'll still have hope for the next one.

You eluded this next marker (Shiver?) being special. Any chance you could elaborate or give us some indication what you mean? Hopper on top? Magazine fed option? FS capable? Is it ready? Do you have a release date set?
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:29 AM #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gisgo09 View Post
The rear o-ring (not the one on the guide) only serves to move the spool forward. The front section is not balanced and once the pressure is removed from the rear, the spool will return back.

The reason you can't over dwell the gun is because of the hall effects sensor which tells the board where the bolt is. Once it's reached a certain point the board shuts off the dwell even if it's less than what you have the board set to. So if you set your dwell to 100 ms, it will activate the noid for 100 ms or until the HE sensor tells it the bolt has reached the desired position.

I expect more from you shocker guys...
I'm pretty sure that the shot volume in the front and foregrip is also mechanically sealed once the firing cycle begins.


left chamber = the left side of the diagram where pressure will push the bolt and 'ram(?)' forward

right chamber = the void where the lpr would traditionally be and the foregrip is. This air actually propels the ball

Something like:
1: Waiting for a shot
-left chamber is open to outside air, all pressure is vented
-right chamber is being fed by the hpr output

2. Shot, solenoid operates
-left chamber is switched from open to being fed from the hpr
-right chamber is switched from fed by the hpr to sealed

Bolt and 'ram' travel forward against the pressure in the shot volume. Once it passes the valving point all the air in the right chamber propels the ball out the barrel (and no more enters because it is mechanically sealed).

3. Dwell has passed/Hall effect sensor detects the bolt has cycled fully forward, solenoid returns to original state
-left chamber is switched from fed by the hpr to venting and open to outside air
-right chamber is switched from sealed to fed from the hpr

Bolt and 'ram' are now pushed backward as pressure leaves the left chamber and enters the right chamber. The cycle is complete once the bolt and 'ram' return to their at rest positions. The right chamber is charged with air and the marker waits for the next shot. Even if the hall effect sensor fails for some unknown reason with your dwell set to 100ms the right chamber was emptied with the shot and is sealed. You wont be venting air down the barrel the whole time the bolt is forward.

I think it's a pretty neato take on an unbalanced spool.
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Old 02-06-2013, 10:50 AM #310
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Originally Posted by password1 View Post
Don't get me wrong, 1600 shots is good for a spoolie and there are plenty of people out there willing to pay extra for aesthetic features like a 'smooth' shot, shiny colors, unique 'engine', or a pretty milling job.

Guess I was just really hoping for some new tech that improved performance or at least a marker with good efficiency. Definitely disappointed in Josh's posts which indicate it's nothing innovative and it's just an iterative product designed to fund the next gun.

I know. I know. Your company motto; Don't like it? Don't buy it. I'll reserve judgement until the PBE release. Even if still disappointing, I'll still have hope for the next one.

You eluded this next marker (Shiver?) being special. Any chance you could elaborate or give us some indication what you mean? Hopper on top? Magazine fed option? FS capable? Is it ready? Do you have a release date set?
Just wondering how this gun/platform is not innovative? It takes the efficiency/ease of maintenance/ruggedness of a poppet (albeit maintenance on a poppet is only marginally easier than a spoolie) and combines it with the smooth shot/quietness of a spool. It may not have the best efficiency of the top poppets, but it is still much better than almost any other spool efficiency. I know to you this may not be an "innovation" because you don't care about shot smoothness (btw, shot smoothness isn't an aesthetic feature), but that doesn't make it any less of an innovation.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:06 AM #311
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Originally Posted by PModern View Post
I'm pretty sure that the shot volume in the front and foregrip is also mechanically sealed once the firing cycle begins.


left chamber = the left side of the diagram where pressure will push the bolt and 'ram(?)' forward

right chamber = the void where the lpr would traditionally be and the foregrip is. This air actually propels the ball

Something like:
1: Waiting for a shot
-left chamber is open to outside air, all pressure is vented
-right chamber is being fed by the hpr output

2. Shot, solenoid operates
-left chamber is switched from open to being fed from the hpr
-right chamber is switched from fed by the hpr to sealed

Bolt and 'ram' travel forward against the pressure in the shot volume. Once it passes the valving point all the air in the right chamber propels the ball out the barrel (and no more enters because it is mechanically sealed).

3. Dwell has passed/Hall effect sensor detects the bolt has cycled fully forward, solenoid returns to original state
-left chamber is switched from fed by the hpr to venting and open to outside air
-right chamber is switched from sealed to fed from the hpr

Bolt and 'ram' are now pushed backward as pressure leaves the left chamber and enters the right chamber. The cycle is complete once the bolt and 'ram' return to their at rest positions. The right chamber is charged with air and the marker waits for the next shot. Even if the hall effect sensor fails for some unknown reason with your dwell set to 100ms the right chamber was emptied with the shot and is sealed. You wont be venting air down the barrel the whole time the bolt is forward.

I think it's a pretty neato take on an unbalanced spool.
That would explain why they need a 3 way valve for the mech version. Good catch (possibly).

I was thinking maybe they incorporated a return spring on the guide. In the previous art for the patent they showed a version which had a sealed portion up front with constant pressure to return the spool. That should make for a faster closing valve, but they removed it and I wasn't sure how or if they compensated.

The more I think about it though, I don't see how the valve would function properly if the forward chamber had to refill after the shot. There would be lag after each shot and a quick puff of air would escape the valve after the shot while the valve was closing. The gun would work fine, but it wouldn't be optimal and I doubt they'd get the efficiency they're talking about.

Edit: To password. The HE sensor is pretty innovative if you ask me. It opens up some cool possibilities for other designs and should make this gun fairly fool proof.
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Last edited by Gisgo09 : 02-06-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 11:29 AM #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gisgo09 View Post
That would explain why they need a 3 way valve for the mech version. Good catch (possibly).

I was thinking maybe they incorporated a return spring on the guide. In the previous art for the patent they showed a version which had a sealed portion up front with constant pressure to return the spool. That should make for a faster closing valve, but they removed it and I wasn't sure how or if they compensated.

The more I think about it though, I don't see how the valve would function properly if the forward chamber had to refill after the shot. There would be lag after each shot and a quick puff of air would escape the valve after the shot while the valve was closing. The gun would work fine, but it wouldn't be optimal and I doubt they'd get the efficiency they're talking about.

Edit: To password. The HE sensor is pretty innovative if you ask me. It opens up some cool possibilities for other designs and should make this gun fairly fool proof.
Good point with the air escaping when the pressures switched. There has to be a clever little way to overcome that lag. There is something we are missing.

Edit: Any idea what that small brass piece in the frame with two o-rings is for? I think that might be key. It looks like it has space for a spring underneath it, could a valve that operates from a pressure differential as part of the firing cycle.

Last edited by PModern : 02-06-2013 at 11:35 AM. Reason: adding a thought without a double post
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:10 PM #313
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Originally Posted by PModern View Post
Good point with the air escaping when the pressures switched. There has to be a clever little way to overcome that lag. There is something we are missing.

Edit: Any idea what that small brass piece in the frame with two o-rings is for? I think that might be key. It looks like it has space for a spring underneath it, could a valve that operates from a pressure differential as part of the firing cycle.
Could be the valve that shuts the air off going into the volume chamber. A spring where paper cut marked as a possible spot for a bumper would solve the lag problem.
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:14 PM #314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gisgo09 View Post
That would explain why they need a 3 way valve for the mech version. Good catch (possibly).

I was thinking maybe they incorporated a return spring on the guide. In the previous art for the patent they showed a version which had a sealed portion up front with constant pressure to return the spool. That should make for a faster closing valve, but they removed it and I wasn't sure how or if they compensated.

The more I think about it though, I don't see how the valve would function properly if the forward chamber had to refill after the shot. There would be lag after each shot and a quick puff of air would escape the valve after the shot while the valve was closing. The gun would work fine, but it wouldn't be optimal and I doubt they'd get the efficiency they're talking about.

Edit: To password. The HE sensor is pretty innovative if you ask me. It opens up some cool possibilities for other designs and should make this gun fairly fool proof.
couldnt you seal the valve before the front chamber opens when recocking?
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Old 02-06-2013, 12:24 PM #315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gisgo09 View Post
Could be the valve that shuts the air off going into the volume chamber. A spring where paper cut marked as a possible spot for a bumper would solve the lag problem.
I think you are right, that would make sense
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