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Old 01-30-2013, 01:24 PM #316
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I don't know one way or another if the challengers bracket will have prizes, but why would it need them?

If you look at it this way, you are paying for the ability to compete for the 11-20th (or whatever) spot in the pro division. If they let you play pro, and you got 11th, your prize would be 0. If you get first in the challengers bracket, you for all intents and purposes got 11th in the pro division.

Maybe you could claim the 1st place challenger is "better" than the 10th place champion bracket team, but surely they are not "better" than the 3rd place pro team.

Look at it this way, say you are in the champion's bracket. You get 10th place and drop down. You get 0 for getting 10th place. Next event in the challengers bracket you get 1st place. Should you be getting paid then? Why? You just "proved" that you're not even better in the previous event than the number 8 team who got nothing so why should you get paid?

This is just my opinion, but the Champion/Challenger is one entire pro division and the naming convention they adopted is just a way to categories who will play on what field.

If a team wants to move up from D1, they have to realize they are going to get smashed in the pro division and have no hope of getting prizes in their first event. And if they are phenomenal like Trauma or Lockout of olden days, then they'll smash the Challenger division(bracket) and that's the only event they won't get "paid" (just barely enough to cover the hotel bill) and they'll prove themselves worthy of a paycheck just barely enough to cover the flights and rental car in the next event!

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I like the idea..

A few issues I don't think has been pointed out..
1. The Challengers bracket needs prizes, Otherwise why would some D1 Teams move up when they don't think they can compete with the best (champ) teams and not win anything. They might keep playing D1 longer until they think they can get in the Champ bracket and stand a chance to win something. Can the PSP afford said prizes?

2. With teams bouncing in and out, how do you award a prize for the challengers bracket. You cant give them something and then not the lower "Champ" teams.

3. With Event one being "invite only", and then event 2 'promoting' D1 teams, those teams have lost a shot at series points. Spending money on the first event to get "promoted" and not even receive series points seems unnecessary.

4. On Locking the Rosters - Teams, especially in this skill range tend to be heavy in spot-competition and also under funded. People get cut or can't play every event, ect. Unknown players on the 20th ranked team are just going to 'bounce' around if they cut or cant play for their former team, and get picked up like the top seasoned pros are more capable of doing.

I had alot more questions but lost it in this sea of opinions..
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:31 PM #317
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:39 PM #318
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Originally Posted by VPB-ChristianW View Post
I don't know one way or another if the challengers bracket will have prizes, but why would it need them?

If you look at it this way, you are paying for the ability to compete for the 11-20th (or whatever) spot in the pro division. If they let you play pro, and you got 11th, your prize would be 0. If you get first in the challengers bracket, you for all intents and purposes got 11th in the pro division.

Maybe you could claim the 1st place challenger is "better" than the 10th place champion bracket team, but surely they are not "better" than the 3rd place pro team.

Look at it this way, say you are in the champion's bracket. You get 10th place and drop down. You get 0 for getting 10th place. Next event in the challengers bracket you get 1st place. Should you be getting paid then? Why? You just "proved" that you're not even better in the previous event than the number 8 team who got nothing so why should you get paid?

This is just my opinion, but the Champion/Challenger is one entire pro division and the naming convention they adopted is just a way to categories who will play on what field.

If a team wants to move up from D1, they have to realize they are going to get smashed in the pro division and have no hope of getting prizes in their first event. And if they are phenomenal like Trauma or Lockout of olden days, then they'll smash the Challenger division(bracket) and that's the only event they won't get "paid" (just barely enough to cover the hotel bill) and they'll prove themselves worthy of a paycheck just barely enough to cover the flights and rental car in the next event!
I get your point Chris..... but then, by that logic, only the pro division should have prizes.

The lower divisions have prizes, to reward teams in those brackets for achievement, despite winning D2 sometimes meaning you are the "60th best team at the event"..... and event promoters do it to incentivise entries into the divisions, rather than teams opting to play local events in the top division, where they WILL get prizes.

So, I do think the challengers division warrant prizes, at least as long as all the divisions below do also.
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Old 01-30-2013, 01:52 PM #319
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I get your point Chris..... but then, by that logic, only the pro division should have prizes.

The lower division have prizes, to reward teams in that bracket for achievement, despite winning D2 sometimes meaning you are the "60th best team at the event"..... and event promoters do it to incentivise entries into the division, rather than teams opting to play local events in the top division, where they WILL get prizes.

So, I do think the challengers division warrant prizes, at least as long as all the divisions below do also.

Whether or not they award prizes is up to them (PSP) -- that is to say I'm not lobbying for or against prizes. I personally don't think it makes sense. The logic isn't the same as other divisions. If they decided to have a 20 team pro division on a single field spread out over 7 days, none of those guys in the challengers would get prizes. The challengers are exactly that, challengers. No one in D3 signs up to challenge pros (at least not anymore... insert good old days rant). The challengers sign up to challenge each other for the right to play pro.

I guess the PSP might just say, "well at the cost of promoting this second field marketing concept, in which we are already spending tons of money to accommodate guys who want to play pro but always lose, let's add $10,000 more in expenses for publicity's sake and give away $2k per event".

It may make sense to reward a D1 team for stepping up (maybe 1 time free entry into challengers division) but it seems crazy to reward a team who finished at the bottom in the previous event.

But I don't think the D4-D1 divisional analogy holds, because those guys are not entered and ranked into the pro division. I'm basing this assumption off the fact that the Challengers are in fact part of the pro division, but just challenging each other for the right to play on center field against the higher ranked teams in the following event.

You don't play D3 for the privilege of playing D2. You play the Challengers for the privilege of playing the Champions.

But in any case, we can probably all agree that whatever the prize is, it will unfortunately never be enough to cover expenses...

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Old 01-30-2013, 01:57 PM #320
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:24 PM #321
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Meh......not much will change. There have always been bottom teams and top teams in the pro division. After a couple events the 4-5 bottom teams will be the only ones circulating and everything will be the same as ever. You may get the odd glitch here and there where one of the top performers just blows it but for the most part I think not much will change at the top levels.

Now......my prediction for the challenger division is that the champion teams who get demoted here will be sick of switching divisions all the time. Their sponsors will pull out money better spent on top dawgs. Their teams will crumble, and the players will be reabsorbed at the top(for the good players) or into other challenger division teams who may or may not get a chance to move up for long. Most likely they'll just become another circulating team.

In the end the top will still be the top....the bottom will now just be jumping between two divisions instead of being at the bottom of one division. I hope I'm pleasantly proven wrong though.
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:12 PM #322
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WTB 15BPS and 20min halfs plz
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:54 PM #323
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this will be quite interesting
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Old 01-30-2013, 04:45 PM #324
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WTB 15BPS and 20min halfs plz
AMEN

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Again, you'll really have to use your brain, but why aren't we doing things like those "other" sports? Really think about it.

How are we like other sports? How are we different? And don't just apply these questions to the rules of the game, try asking these questions in relation to the economics, marketing, and logistics of paintball. How are all these things effecting each other, and countless other things.

What it all should tell you about paintball is that it's nothing like other professional sports. If anything, it's most like NASCAR, in that its nothing like the rest. Hell, even NASCAR is more like them then paintball is.

It was about damn time somebody stopped having the same dream that the NXL started 10 years ago. It's not drastically different, but hopefully it's enough. Maybe even perfect.
I stopped acknowledging your opinion when you said its most like nascar.

As my signature says, I feel like the CXBL has the strongest format right now and its the most appropriate option i feel for paintball to be a televised watchable sport. This can EVENTUALLY lead to games being held the way other pro sports do. One team flies out to play the other, and so on.
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:36 PM #325
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I think this will be a bad idea cause now its just more to keep track of and i dont know about that
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:40 PM #326
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I think this will be a bad idea cause now its just more to keep track of and i dont know about that
... not sure if serious
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Old 01-30-2013, 06:18 PM #327
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Penalty boxes in every division, put the same format as the Pros throughout the whole league already...

Timed halves > raceto

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Old 01-30-2013, 07:55 PM #328
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AMEN



I stopped acknowledging your opinion when you said its most like nascar.

As my signature says, I feel like the CXBL has the strongest format right now and its the most appropriate option i feel for paintball to be a televised watchable sport. This can EVENTUALLY lead to games being held the way other pro sports do. One team flies out to play the other, and so on.
Way to use that brain…

Apparently you missed the part where I said that its most like NASCAR because its nothing like other pro sports.

And as far as the CXBL goes, I hear you, I loved playing that format. Wish I still could (I could in the USPA, I lack the funds though). But it's not going to get us on TV. The PSP tried that already for how many years? 4? And then the Gardners' tried it and spent a large amount of money on it. Neither got us to TV for any length of time. It's been tried and its failed, several times.
Y
I don't know why we're so focused on TV anyway…

So, next time you read a post from me, read it, and use your brain to really think about what I'm saying.
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Old 01-30-2013, 09:04 PM #329
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Initially I was very excited because I believe this will elevate the level of competition at events. After thinking more about I think there may be some adverse effects to the PSP's plan. Paintball is already having trouble making itself appealing to non-paintball players and this change is not helping our cause.
For a long time now the sport of paintball has been adapting and evolving to appeal to people outside the sport. Like other major sports paintball is looking to appeal to those that don't necessarily participate in the sport. When our sport begins to attract the attention of non-players, not only will it attract more players to support the industry, but it will create more fans. More fans creates a greater demand and in turn creates endless financial opportunities for the sport.
What is the number one response you get when you show someone who has never played paintball the web cast or a video of a game? I've always got something along the lines of “it's confusing” or “I don't get it.” We as paintball players struggle to think about our sport from the perspectives of the people who lack the knowledge but these are the people we are looking to attract. Matty, Chris, and Todd even go out of their way to explain many elements of the game during the web cast because the PSP also realizes that people need to understand the game to become a fan. The more difficult the sport is to understand the less likely the sport will gain fans.
We also don't have the luxury of being face to face with non-players to explain everything so the sport needs to be so simple that it is quickly understood. A focused attention span can be as short as 8 seconds. In as little as 8 seconds our sport needs to be able to pull the audience in and create a vested interest in the sport. Of course no sport could attract someone who knows nothing in only 8 seconds but the point is that we need to make the sport as simple as possible.
This champions and challengers split of the pro division creates another “curve ball” for potential fans. Lets say we manage to get someone interested in the web cast for the first event. The person is from the same city as Team A. The viewer hasn't fully bought in to the sport but is somewhat interested in seeing Team A at event 2. Unfortunately Team A finished last at event 1. Event 2 rolls around and the web cast shows the games for the day and the person doesn't seem Team A listed. The person shrugs their shoulders and moves on to something else.
The above situation is not far fetched whatsoever. We are essentially looking for people to “buy in” to our sport. The decision making process in this situation is incredibly fragile and we need to do everything we can to stack the odds in our favor. During this decision making process we need to give people any and every reason to relate to and gain an interest in the sport. When people find something they can relate to it buys you much more time to really pull them in and keep them in the fan base.
Of course I'm not trying to act like I know every reason behind the PSP making the decision nor am I trying to undermine any decisions by the PSP. These consequences could very well have been evaluated by the PSP and the decision was made because the pro's outweighed the con's. Our sport is run by very intelligent people and as I said before this system will require tuning. I have faith in paintball's leaders to identify and correct any issues we may find!

Abbreviated version:
champs/challengers=more complicated sport=tougher to acquire fans

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Old 01-30-2013, 09:38 PM #330
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Ya roster locking is not a good idea. No pro sport locks rosters for a whole season. People get hurt, real life happens, etc. There are better ways of keeping guys from bailing.
You can lock it to prevent a player who was rostered on team A at event 1 moving to team B at event2.

You can lock it and still have a new player come onto the roster for event 2 that wasn't rostered for any other team at event 1.

For the teams that will be playing at this level... i think they have a larger enough limit with players that probably commit for a whole season.
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Old 01-31-2013, 02:06 AM #331
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A big question is if you'll have 18 teams that want to play pro? If you're a realistic top D1 team that knows they'll just get slaughtered playing pro I'm not sure if you'll see them be anxious to jump to the challengers division. It sounds great to get the chance to prove yourself, but if you've already proven youre only a top 3-5 d1 team, do you really think youre going to prove much against a bottom 4 pro team when you've proven you can't dominate the division you're currently in?
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:09 AM #332
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It'll never be a sport........I've played for 23 years, and even at it's peek paintball never came close to being accepted on tv. It's just not entertaining to anyone who doesn't actually play. Honestly, it's actually pretty boring to watch even when you do play lol. Most people who play paintball don't even play tournaments so in reality you're not even appealing to most of our own participants.

You want paintball on tv? Make a one on one reality show, where players battle each other for a prize. Two people.....one goal... choose your weapon...easy to understand and watch. That's your best chance. Actually I call dibs on that idea! If anyone steals it I'm calling my lawyer lol.
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Old 01-31-2013, 09:47 AM #333
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Incorporating some sort of paintball competition into an American gladiators type show would def. get more interest than the webcast. But I do think this will make the webcast better. A higher percentage of the match ups will be competitive and not just formalities.
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Old 01-31-2013, 10:08 AM #334
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It's just not entertaining to anyone who doesn't actually play. Honestly, it's actually pretty boring to watch even when you do play lol.
You know, we brought a guy who doesn't play paintball at all out to help us drive our truck/trailer for an event last year (PSP Chicago). He's a rural guy, extremely crazy hunter. During the down time at the event, we sent him over to watch a few games. He was really into it. He came back talking about how Infamous came back and won, how the Russians were really good, etc. etc. To this day, after just helping us out at 1 event, and not being a player, he's still "liking" posts on our Facebook page about various teams.

So there is definitely a set of guys who will eat up paintball. The problem is they are hard to "reach". It would seem to me the proper crowd for introducing competitive paintball is not ESPN but the various hunting channels (these guys do after all sit for hours (days!?) in a hunting blind waiting for an elk to pass by so they can shoot it, paintball is pretty intense and interesting to that crowd!)

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Old 01-31-2013, 10:50 AM #335
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i think this is getting off topic and going down the road of the all too beaten horse of "sport and paintball...media and paintball.."

If i am right, Lane incorporated this format to help ease in the D1 teams since there was such a gap between D1 and PRo without a Semi-Division...this gives a teams a year or two of a step up in competition before a full blown promotion to pro. Everyone was talking about the gap, and how there needs to be some sort of Semi-Pro division, however there is/was a lack of teams with the last Semi- Pro division.

The second reason if i read right, was to help create drama and excitement into the events and season. Like mentioned before.....if a top team is starting to have a bad event....to the point where, lets say, a match between X-factor and....lets say last season's Aftershock, will be alot closer then it should, and the added drama that a Top teir team like xfactor might be relegated if they lose, the match is alot more interesting and dramatic.

Also the last event of the year BEFORE world cup is typically....if not always....the smallest event with the least interest. This format will help create interest since the Champion and Challenger teams are trying to Qualify into world cup. This should also be a sign that any team trying to play World Cup as a one of, like some of the foreign teams...would have to play the fourth event first!

Just saying, this is what help make commander's cup so interesting at the end of the NPPL season....seeing what teams would be dropped from the pro bracket into D1. Im sure everyone remembers how Arsenal would do middle of the road in the NPPL, while their D1 team would win a pro spot every season...haha that the Arsenal would sell. Thats all speculation by the way.
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Old 01-31-2013, 04:44 PM #336
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If i am right, Lane incorporated this format to help ease in the D1 teams since there was such a gap between D1 and PRo without a Semi-Division...this gives a teams a year or two of a step up in competition before a full blown promotion to pro. Everyone was talking about the gap, and how there needs to be some sort of Semi-Pro division, however there is/was a lack of teams with the last Semi- Pro division.
It's probably more about getting rid of the NPPL, by giving their "pro" teams a viable option to make PSP pro fairly fast (in theory at least).

Also, you will start to see more and more european teams wanting to take the step in the next couple of seasons, to try and copy RL.

- Teams like Art Chaos, Tontons, Breakout, Icon, and possibly one of the german pro teams.

So, if all goes to plan, the challengers division will be pretty slim this year (possibly baring the first event, where everyone will want to have a go).... but in year 2, it could probably fill out nicely, with teams from both sides of the atlantic.
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