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Old 07-24-2014, 02:18 PM #1
phiend
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Do Jews and Muslims go to heaven?

Is their God close enough? Or is heaven only for Christians? Obviously only one of three have it right. What about the groups that have splintered off from the main branches? Say Sunnis are following the right god. Do Shiites go to hell? Or maybe Catholics are the true believers. Do Bapists spend eternity in hell with Muslims and Jews?
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Old 07-24-2014, 04:25 PM #2
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Old 07-25-2014, 10:56 AM #3
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Originally Posted by phiend View Post
Is their God close enough? Or is heaven only for Christians? Obviously only one of three have it right. What about the groups that have splintered off from the main branches? Say Sunnis are following the right god. Do Shiites go to hell? Or maybe Catholics are the true believers. Do Bapists spend eternity in hell with Muslims and Jews?
Keep in mind that all three major religions (Islam, Christianity, and Judaism) all worship the same god... the god of Abraham.
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Old 07-25-2014, 01:47 PM #4
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But the differences in each are significant. Muslims doing accept Jesus. I don't think Jews do either? If you omit such a large part, is it still the same?
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Old 07-25-2014, 02:24 PM #5
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Funny images aside I don't think it's a question that has or needs an answer. I once heard a Muslim say that all religions are expressions of Allah. I can't remember how he put it exactly but that was the message. Something else that's worth thinking about is the fact that every civilization eventually places its own construction of reality on the pedestal as the absolute reflection of reality over all those that came before it. I'm not well read on Islam but there are definitely expressions of that pattern which crop up throughout Christianities history right through to modern Christians. Civil religions do this too. A causal stroll through the politics subsection or hell this one will reveal plenty of instances of the same mode of thinking.

So the idea that only believers of this religion get to share in the spoils has more to do with human behavior than it does with what's written down in holy books. Basically, the answer varies according to who you're talking to. There is no authoritative answer.
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Old 07-26-2014, 03:16 PM #6
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There is no authoritative answer.
Seems to me that would only be true if there is no heaven or hell. If it's an either/or Somebody has the say.

Seriously, eternity with activists and vegetarians....

speaks of there being a hell if you ask me.
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Old 07-26-2014, 08:44 PM #7
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Seems to me that would only be true if there is no heaven or hell. If it's an either/or Somebody has the say.
well, look at it this way, there's no authoritative answer available from people.
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Old 07-27-2014, 11:53 PM #8
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"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." [Qur'an 29:46]

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." [Qur'an 2:62]
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:14 PM #9
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"And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." [Qur'an 29:46]

"Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve." [Qur'an 2:62]
Sura (2:191) - "And kill them(non-believers) wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers."

Sura (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority". This speaks directly of killing Christians, since they believe in the Trinity (ie. what Muhammad incorrectly believed to be 'joining companions to Allah').

Sura - "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-"

Sura (3:28) - "Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming."

Sura (8:39) - "And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah"

Sura (9:14) - "Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace..."

and most importantly:
Sura (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:25 PM #10
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Heaven and hell are both lived on Earth. Heaven is someone with peace of mind and hell is one experiencing anguish. If each person lives in according to their religion's ideals-peace, love, charity, ect.-they will be in heaven. Things like homophobia and spreading the word via missions do not promote a heavenly mindset. Likewise, non-belivers living with positive ideals can go to heaven as well.
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:57 PM #11
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Heaven and hell are both lived on Earth. Heaven is someone with peace of mind and hell is one experiencing anguish. If each person lives in according to their religion's ideals-peace, love, charity, ect.-they will be in heaven. Things like homophobia and spreading the word via missions do not promote a heavenly mindset. Likewise, non-belivers living with positive ideals can go to heaven as well.
The problem with this statement is that nobody can live up to an ideal. If anyone tried they would constantly be plagued by always coming up short. They would suffer from constant self doubt and their desire to achieve success would lead them to a hell on Earth.

If we went by your advice, that Heaven is peace of mind and Hell is anguish, then the best way to live that peace would be to completely rid yourself of everything, both your worries and your desires. To reach a state of complete nirvana, however, that isn't living, it's just existing. Watching the world tick by as you mire in a state of nothingness.

Thus, we are left with a catch 22, no matter what we do, we cannot escape the suffering. Which is why the concept of a heaven is so appealing yet nobody is capable of describing what a heaven be. Most come to the conclusion, such as yourself, that heaven is simply a place where you exist for all eternity. Which might be fine for awhile, but eternity is a long time, and no matter how nice it would be when you first arrive, you would eventually break. After that, the heaven you once knew as a place of bliss would become your hell.

Which is why ceasing to be entirely might be the most desirable outcome. Though, that is a rather scary proposition for a living thing, from the simplest organism to the most complex, all have a strong urge for self preservation, and the thought that we might cease to exist scares our most basic of instincts: to survive no matter the cost.
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:27 PM #12
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The problem with this statement is that nobody can live up to an ideal. If anyone tried they would constantly be plagued by always coming up short. They would suffer from constant self doubt and their desire to achieve success would lead them to a hell on Earth.

If we went by your advice, that Heaven is peace of mind and Hell is anguish, then the best way to live that peace would be to completely rid yourself of everything, both your worries and your desires. To reach a state of complete nirvana, however, that isn't living, it's just existing. Watching the world tick by as you mire in a state of nothingness.

Thus, we are left with a catch 22, no matter what we do, we cannot escape the suffering. Which is why the concept of a heaven is so appealing yet nobody is capable of describing what a heaven be. Most come to the conclusion, such as yourself, that heaven is simply a place where you exist for all eternity. Which might be fine for awhile, but eternity is a long time, and no matter how nice it would be when you first arrive, you would eventually break. After that, the heaven you once knew as a place of bliss would become your hell.

Which is why ceasing to be entirely might be the most desirable outcome. Though, that is a rather scary proposition for a living thing, from the simplest organism to the most complex, all have a strong urge for self preservation, and the thought that we might cease to exist scares our most basic of instincts: to survive no matter the cost.
Good points.

I agree that to reach heaven, peace, enlightenment, nirvana, whatever, it may be necessary to give up all desires and experience a state of complete non-attachment. However, I have found that everyone can experience their own heaven based on their own expectations and reality. If one is always comparing their self to others, then yes it will be impossible to have peace of mind. It is highly unlikely that I or many other people can achieve the same frame of mind that the Buddha and others have reached.

What I think is quite easily possible is reaching your own peace of mind by not comparing yourself to others. When comparing and contrasting oneself against others there will never be peace because there will always be something "better". If you can tone down the self judgments peace of mind is pretty simple!

As to your point about existing in a heaven state of mind for all eternity, I agree as well. I don't think anybody can keep a "perfect" mindset all the time. Life is full of peaks and troughs just like a wave. Even human anatomy with all the fluctuating hormones and chemicals deems it impossible. However this is where I think a certain level of non-attachment comes it to play.

The best analogy I can come up with is viewing the mind as a house. When a guest comes in the door of the house does it become the house itself? No of course not. Just as when a thought or emotion passes through your mind it does not become you. You can invite the thought in, entertain it, and ask it to leave when ever the right time is.

So as your moods, emotions, thoughts, and energy may fluctuate like everyone's does, it is possible to experience those changes while not becoming them. Just as you watch television in the third person you can experience your mind working in the same way.

When you can experience your mind from a different perspective it is possible to maintain peace of mind while undergoing negative moods. We are all human and the world works in a negative/positive balance. If we were positive all the time it may become quite boring! It is the negative things that help us appreciate the positive things all the more.
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Old 08-20-2014, 03:22 PM #13
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I was listening to a debate on Public Radio International yesterday. One caller was postulating that a person could not have a true moral compass without a belief system in religion ( with Christianity being the top of the heap) My point being do humans have an innate sense of right and wrong and thus does doing the right thing gets you into "heaven" regardless of your religious beliefs?
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:20 PM #14
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I was listening to a debate on Public Radio International yesterday. One caller was postulating that a person could not have a true moral compass without a belief system in religion ( with Christianity being the top of the heap) My point being do humans have an innate sense of right and wrong and thus does doing the right thing gets you into "heaven" regardless of your religious beliefs?
Do they? Yes. If you want to pull a religious interpretation out then The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil(what adam and eve ate) is what gave us our moral compass and someone knows what is right and what is wrong whether or not you're a christian. Though, seeing as how when you "accept Jesus" he does away with your sin, I guess he takes away your innate knowledge and leaves you having no idea what good and evil is.

Though, as a moral guide it appears that Christianity completely fails, with the US prison population being about 50% Christian and 0.07% atheist
http://natskep.com/only-0-07-of-pris...risons-report/

As for reality: when you have a social population trying to live and work together it's rather unproductive to have them going around kill each other.
Humans naturally develop empathy without having to be taught around the age of 4 kids finally grasp the theory of mind and quickly learn that if "I want to be treated well, I had better treat him well." Which is why you can tell a 2 year old to share until you're blue in the face and he isn't going to but a 5 year old has no problem with the concept.

You will pick the small things up from those around you(such as calling your mother and farting into the phone isn't a good idea) and the more basic interactions(don't murder, don't steal, etcc) are innate to you and don't need to be taught.

You don't need to be told by some book how to live right and according to the evidence, it's better if you don't, because some of the most terrible things in history have been done in the name of religion.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:17 AM #15
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I was listening to a debate on Public Radio International yesterday. One caller was postulating that a person could not have a true moral compass without a belief system in religion ( with Christianity being the top of the heap) My point being do humans have an innate sense of right and wrong and thus does doing the right thing gets you into "heaven" regardless of your religious beliefs?
The point he's making is accurate but ill founded. It isn't that humans and require religion to have a moral compass. It's that humans cannot help but act and think religiously. Religiosity is innate .
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:44 AM #16
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I asked a Catholic priest this exact question once. I am not here to say what is right and wrong just passing along what I heard. He told me that their are two requirements that need to be met for people of other religions to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. First, at no point in their lives could they have ever been introduced to the Catholic religion. Meaning that if a Muslim heard about the Catholic religion and didn't choose to practice it then he/she is choosing to follow a false god. Secondly, if they've never heard about the Catholic religion then they could still go to heaven as long as they have practiced their religion faithfully and stayed true to their god. You can take this information and form your own conclusion!
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Old 08-21-2014, 12:00 PM #17
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I asked a Catholic priest this exact question once. I am not here to say what is right and wrong just passing along what I heard. He told me that their are two requirements that need to be met for people of other religions to be accepted into the kingdom of heaven. First, at no point in their lives could they have ever been introduced to the Catholic religion. Meaning that if a Muslim heard about the Catholic religion and didn't choose to practice it then he/she is choosing to follow a false god. Secondly, if they've never heard about the Catholic religion then they could still go to heaven as long as they have practiced their religion faithfully and stayed true to their god. You can take this information and form your own conclusion!
What a pretty view of the world. Meanwhile in reality: the bible says quite specifically that whether you've heard it or not, you're going to hell unless you get on the Jesus train in time.
Also, no matter how good or bad you were in life it makes little difference. The most heinous murders go to heaven as long as they accept Jesus before they died and the nicest people will go to hell if they don't.

That's kind of why I raise one eyebrow when people say the bible is a moral guide, because the bible doesn't say you have to be a good person, all it says it that you have to accept Jesus and you're free to sin all day every day.
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Old 09-03-2014, 09:43 PM #18
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That's not at all what it says.
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Old 09-04-2014, 09:47 AM #19
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That's not at all what it says.
Agreed.
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Old 09-04-2014, 11:43 PM #20
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Agreed.
Yup. Agreed. That is not exactly what the Bible says.

As a Catholic, I just wanted to clarify the post about the Catholic priest above. Whenever you have a question regarding the Catholic Church sometimes the simple way to find an answer is to go directly to the source. And by that I don't mean the every day Catholic, because unfortunately we Catholics are not always the best at explaining what our Church teaches. As crazy as that sounds believe me it's even more frustrating on my end because the best case against the Catholic Church are Catholics themselves who don't know or understand Church teachings or they may know what the Church teaches but still choose to ignore it anyways and still call themselves Catholics. But that's for a different topic/discussion.

What I mean by going directly to the source is the Catholic Church has it's own teachings and these can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So for the OP topics let me quote directly from the Church's teachings on the matter found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC).

Here's what the Church teaches about truths:

CCC 819 - many elements of sanctification and of truth”273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.”274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”


Now the priest comment above is likely referring to this:

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

CCC - 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: (161, 1257)

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”338 (1260)

Hope that helps at least from the Catholic Church perspective. You can research the Catechism of the Catholic Church here: http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-tea...epub/index.cfm
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Old 09-05-2014, 12:11 AM #21
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What a pretty view of the world. Meanwhile in reality: the bible says quite specifically that whether you've heard it or not, you're going to hell unless you get on the Jesus train in time. Also, no matter how good or bad you were in life it makes little difference. The most heinous murders go to heaven as long as they accept Jesus before they died and the nicest people will go to hell if they don't. That's kind of why I raise one eyebrow when people say the bible is a moral guide, because the bible doesn't say you have to be a good person, all it says it that you have to accept Jesus and you're free to sin all day every day.
haha yup you got it all figured out..... SMH do some more research
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