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Old 01-25-2013, 05:15 PM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StellarKnight View Post
Kind of like when you have a contract for sale that states "X amount is due to seller on Y date" and the seller can just demand the contracted amount at any time prior to Y date.

No, that's not how it works.
But when that contract comes due instead of renewing it they won't. And if we don't have the money to pay it back what do you suggest we do? Oh, yeah that is right, you just say we create new debt to pay off old debt instead of actually making government solvent.
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:59 PM #86
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
But when that contract comes due instead of renewing it they won't. And if we don't have the money to pay it back what do you suggest we do? Oh, yeah that is right, you just say we create new debt to pay off old debt instead of actually making government solvent.
It's not like it's one large contract due at the one time...
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:04 PM #87
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God, the debt conversation is such a joke. It's literally rooted in misinformation. What's sad is that we went over this like a week ago.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:09 PM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
It's not like it's one large contract due at the one time...
So then why did we just raise the debt ceiling? Oh yeah, because we were about to default on some debt.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:14 PM #89
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
So then why did we just raise the debt ceiling? Oh yeah, because we were about to default on some debt.


How does that have anything to do with what I said?
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:16 PM #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
It's not like it's one large contract due at the one time...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post


How does that have anything to do with what I said?
We can't pay them off when they come due in pieces either.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:18 PM #91
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
We can't pay them off when they come due in pieces either.
We did pay them... Because we raised the debt ceiling like we should have.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABSURD NOTION THAT CHINA CAN CALL IN ALL IT'S DEBT AT ONCE AND CRUSH OUR ECONOMY.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:21 PM #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
We did pay them... Because we raised the debt ceiling like we should have.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ABSURD NOTION THAT CHINA CAN CALL IN ALL IT'S DEBT AT ONCE AND CRUSH OUR ECONOMY.
No one said they can call all its debt at once. I didn't at least.

And we paid it off by taking on more debt. That is NOT a sustainable system. We can't live on debt forever. Once people start realizing that our credit sucks because we start to default we are ****ed. Just because they cannot call it all at once does not mean it isn't a problem.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:25 PM #93
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Anyone else want to try to explain? I feel like I am wasting my breathe.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:32 PM #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Anyone else want to try to explain? I feel like I am wasting my breathe.
I will address them point by point.
Quote:
1) China would never want to stop buying our debt.
2) Even if they did it would hurt them much more than it would us.
3) We could easily find people to replace them. Japan had more of our debt than China until 2007.
4) This is stupid as ****/
1) This is a very ignorant view. The only reason they buy our debt is because they think we are a good investment. People invested in Greece and the Euro zone before and look what happened. Get off you high horse that you think we will always be a good investment. Things change.

2) If their economy is stronger no it won't. Lose that big of a chunk of financing would drastically change our available funds.

3)IF China is leaving, you can bet your *** other countries will stop investing as well because most likely our credit rating will suck.

4) Great point


Now I would like you to explain to me how taking on more debt to pay off current debt is a good idea. And also I would like you to tell me what you think happens when we stop getting new investors to pay the old ones back.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:53 PM #95
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
I will address them point by point.

1) This is a very ignorant view. The only reason they buy our debt is because they think we are a good investment. People invested in Greece and the Euro zone before and look what happened. Get off you high horse that you think we will always be a good investment. Things change.

2) If their economy is stronger no it won't. Lose that big of a chunk of financing would drastically change our available funds.

3)IF China is leaving, you can bet your *** other countries will stop investing as well because most likely our credit rating will suck.

4) Great point


Now I would like you to explain to me how taking on more debt to pay off current debt is a good idea. And also I would like you to tell me what you think happens when we stop getting new investors to pay the old ones back.
The entire point is that China is spontaneously dropping all our debt as a "fiscal weapon" of sorts. Not that we slowly become a poor investment and they decide not to put their money is us. These are far from the same thing and you know it. Stop strawmanning.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:01 PM #96
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Anyone else want to try to explain? I feel like I am wasting my breathe.
You've explained it as well as you can. You can't teach people who are deliberately not learning.
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Old 01-25-2013, 09:01 PM #97
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These "if" situations are dumb. Investors have been paying the Treasury to hold their money.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:41 PM #98
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So just curious... when the day comes that we dont raise the debt ceiling for the 10000x time and we finally default.... then what?

There will be more consequences than a simple slap on the wrist and our President saying "Oh, dang! Our bad. Sorry."


*Gets popcorn and waits for liberal response relating to either brushing the issue under the rug or doing something that will cause even more debt and a even worse economic standing in the world.*
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:29 AM #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Show me one instance where the Fed has been classified as an executive agency.



It does not matter what they do with it. it matters that we OWE it. Basically they gave us $100, we spent it on stupid <del>****</del>, now we have to pay back $105 and we have $0 of it because we are $16T in debt and run $1T deficits every year. So now we resort to raising the debt ceiling, borrow more, and pay off old investors with new investors.
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
But he was saying it does. So we agree?



We have discussed 100 times how silly this is.
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
The entire point is that China is spontaneously dropping all our debt as a "fiscal weapon" of sorts. Not that we slowly become a poor investment and they decide not to put their money is us. These are far from the same thing and you know it. Stop strawmanning.
Note that you engaged my part of the argument before yesme made his comment. I never said they were the same thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by jamest91 View Post
So just curious... when the day comes that we dont raise the debt ceiling for the 10000x time and we finally default.... then what?

There will be more consequences than a simple slap on the wrist and our President saying "Oh, dang! Our bad. Sorry."


*Gets popcorn and waits for liberal response relating to either brushing the issue under the rug or doing something that will cause even more debt and a even worse economic standing in the world.*
Oh well we will cross that bridge when we come to it. No sense in planning now to avoid it. That would be too smart of us.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:33 AM #100
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Note that you engaged my part of the argument before yesme made his comment. I never said they were the same thing.
BUT THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR 3 PAGES!!!

I want to have a clear and explicit destruction of the notion that "China can call us in on our debt and destroy our economy" once and for all. If you can't handle that, please don't post.
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Last edited by TheSilentAssassin : 01-26-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:36 AM #101
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
You've explained it as well as you can. You can't teach people who are deliberately not learning.
Your the spiting image.

Quote:
1) China would never want to stop buying our debt.
2) Even if they did it would hurt them much more than it would us.
3) We could easily find people to replace them. Japan had more of our debt than China until 2007.
4) This is stupid as ****/
1. China is already slowing down on buying our debt, and important figures in china have been talking smack about buying more debt, can you google the links or you want me too?

2. Yeah, as they slowly cut the petrol dollar's/reserve currency legs out from under us.

3. Um, everyone is broke in case you have missed these last couple of years. I dont think places like the Congo republic is going to buy 700 billion in t bills next year.

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Old 01-26-2013, 12:39 AM #102
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You ignored this:

Walk me through how China would go about dumping that much debt quick enough to matter (they can't).
Explain to me how that would hurt our economy (it wouldn't).

Also, I am not going to watch your bull**** youtube videos. If you can't clearly and concisely give your argument, then I don't really care what you think anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yesme View Post
1. China is already slowing down on buying our debt, and important figures in china have been talking smack about buying more debt, can you google the links or you want me too?

2. Yeah, as they slowly cut the petrol dollar's/reserve currency legs out from under us.

3. Um, everyone is broke in case you have missed these last couple of years. I dont think places like the Congo republic is going to buy 700 billion in t bills next year.

1) In a world recession? Shocking!
2) Fear monger much?
3) We are literally the safest investment on the earth. We will always have investors.
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Last edited by TheSilentAssassin : 01-26-2013 at 12:41 AM.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:40 AM #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
If you read the article, you would see it had numerous people agreeing AND IT JUST MAKES SENSE. The point is that their argument is logical not because of who said it but because it is.

1) China would never want to stop buying our debt.
2) Even if they did it would hurt them much more than it would us.
3) We could easily find people to replace them. Japan had more of our debt than China until 2007.
4) This is stupid as <del>****</del>/



Walk me through how China would go about dumping that much debt quick enough to matter (they can't).
Explain to me how that would hurt our economy (it wouldn't).


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
BUT THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT FOR 3 PAGES!!!

I want to have a clear and explicit destruction of the notion that "China can call us in on our debt and destroy our economy" once and for all. If you can't handle that, please don't post.
There have been two arguments going on. You responded to one of my posts about the debt in and a couple other people did as well. You want to sweep it under the rug because you can't argue against it. Well, you tried once by "taxing GDP" but we all know how that turned out for you.

Also, when you say stupid **** like posts 1-4 above, I feel the need to correct you because you are spitting misinformation that is leading to people believing things they shouldn't.

In addition this is an open forum and if I want to post things that are on topic to the thread (which I am because it is about the economy) then I have every right to.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:46 AM #104
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
There have been two arguments going on. You responded to one of my posts about the debt in and a couple other people did as well. You want to sweep it under the rug because you can't argue against it. Well, you tried once by "taxing GDP" but we all know how that turned out for you.
I am trying to focus on the absurd notion that China can destroy our economy by calling in their debt for 2 pages now. You have been trying to derail that by bringing in irrelevant points. I addressed some of them because yesme wasn't responding. Now that he is, I am trying to avoid the clutter.

Also, I never said "taxing GDP". This alone shows how much you are missing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Also, when you say stupid **** like posts 1-4 above, I feel the need to correct you because you are spitting misinformation that is leading to people believing things they shouldn't.
You have to be ****ing joking right? You claimed that China could call in all their debt at once a couple weeks ago, got thoroughly thrashed by LTK and then pretended that wasn't what you were saying.

I may not know a ton about economics, but I know stupid when I see it. I spent quite a bit of time studying logic, so I only really jump in threads to address logical arguments and point out their structural flaws. I don't care much for economics actually. But I certainly can see when you make **** points based on poor premises and invalid steps. That's what I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
In addition this is an open forum and if I want to post things that are on topic to the thread (which I am because it is about the economy) then I have every right to.
Yes, but it's hardly productive to clutter a thread about stuff that we aren't talking about when a very clear and deliberate point is trying to be made. You more than anyone should know that.
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Old 01-26-2013, 12:47 AM #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
You ignored this:

Walk me through how China would go about dumping that much debt quick enough to matter (they can't).
Explain to me how that would hurt our economy (it wouldn't).

Also, I am not going to watch your bull<del>****</del> youtube videos. If you can't clearly and concisely give your argument, then I don't really care what you think anyways.



1) In a world recession? Shocking!
2) Fear monger much?
3) We are literally the safest investment on the earth. We will always have investors.
Quote:
"Having pushed interest rates to zero, launched QE1 and QE2, there's no reason to believe that the Fed is going to allow free-market forces to destroy the fragile recovery it has worked so hard to coax forth now. And make no mistake, at $800 billion, allowing the markets to resolve the shortfall in demand would send rates to levels that would absolutely quash this recovery…if not send the economy in a real depression."

The U.S. has benefitted because other countries needed dollars as reserves and for transactions. No other market has near the depth and liquidity of the U.S. financial system, the linchpin of which is the Treasury market. Not even the loss of America's triple-A rating by Standard & Poor's reduced the attraction of U.S. government obligations.

But other nations are beginning to push back. Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff Thursday criticized not just the U.S. but also Europe and Japan for creating a "tsunami" of cheap money. That has had the effect of forcing up currencies of emerging economies, which threatens to "cannibalize" those countries, she added. Not that this criticism is something new. In 2010, Brazil's finance minister blasted the U.S. for provoking a "currency war" with the Fed's second round of quantitative easing, QE2.
Meanwhile, sensible fiscal reforms such as the Simpson-Bowles are ignored. At the same time, fiscal policy is heading for a cliff of excessive, haphazard tightening beginning in 2013, including the end of the Bush-era tax cuts. That will throttle growth -- and make the deficit worse. And QE3, 4, 5 or whatever will follow. It won't be the end of the world, but it just could be the end of the dollar's preeminence.
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB...958775246.html

Economies are interrelated. A change in one country can easily kill another's economy.
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