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Old 03-12-2013, 08:37 AM #1
bth9461
 
 
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Fockers? Whats up with them? The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Can someone clue me in on these. I got out of the game back in the late 90's and really don't remember them.

What guns are Fockers? please include e-versions also. I have been seeing some guns that look like cockers, but then I see a reference sometimes as this type is a focker.

Why are some high end A/C's (not WGP) like a Eclipse, Dye,ect..... not considered fockers.

Is there a detailed thread that covers all the "Fockers"?
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:41 AM #2
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i think cocker made from non wgp bodies
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:54 AM #3
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Any marker not milled from a WGP blank body is considered a focker, these include (and I'm sure I'll miss at least 1):
AKA, latest shocktech model, later dye models, SystemX, AIM/advanced concepts bodies, later freeflow models (air challenger), psychoballistics, dragun & odyssey.

Most other bodies with different milling, including eclipse (as far as I remember), were milled from WGP blanks. All of them can have an e-version.

Going into a bit more detail, you could classify them into WGP spec and non-WGP spec, meaning you can either swap everything on a WGP body to them or not.

WGP spec:
  • Shocktech
  • Dye
  • SystemX
  • Air challenger
  • Psychoballistics

non-WGP spec:
  • AKA*
  • AIM/Advanced concepts**
  • Dragun
  • Odyssey

(*AKA is famous for their merlin spec fockers but they also made WGP spec revenge 'cockers)
(** the only thing you can't swap is the feedneck, it's angel threaded)

Out of the WGP spec clones, air challenger and psychoballistics are infamous for their leaky pneumatics, poor QC and crappy overall tolerances; only worth looking into if you're making a cheap pump, and even then you run the risk of the valve not seating properly (doesn't happen often, but it's not unheard of).

SystemX is pretty decent as far as mechanics go, but the fit and finish on them is kinda rough (I own 1 and have teched a few); that being said, the 3-way is pretty short and the ram on mine is on par with a belsales ram as far as smoothness of stroke goes (it's beyond well broken in though). The LPR is inline with the banjo and is a bigger copy of a bob long alias LPR (I've tuned & polished my marker to hell and back and have run the LPR @ 60 PSI on 15+ BPS as an electro with no shootdown, no o'rings on the bolt help a lot though). The HPR on them is also an improved copy of the bob long torpedo. They are however, forced LP markers, sweetspotting @ about 200 PSI, which turns them into veritable gas hogs, but it's nothing a spring kit can't fix.

Dye and Shocktech are top notch performing and looking markers, though Dye's pneumatics are a bit finicky and some would opt to take them off in favor of something a bit more reliable and then put them back on for wall hanger/sale purposes. There's a reason these brands command a premium even being fockers.

Out of the non-WGP spec bodies (and even WGP spec considered IMO), AKA is king as far as functionality goes, they make the best working focker of all: the "Merlin", it has a huge air chamber balanced with the proper valve and springs, claims have been made of a case off of a 68/4500 tank, but 1600-1800 would probably be a bit more easily attainable for the average joe, this coupled with the inline 3-way and fastest recharging LPR, make for a smooth, fast and efficient marker. That being said, currently, only basic milling is offered and bodies are sold raw so anodizing is (ideally) another consideration to factor into total cost (milling also if you like a flashier looking marker).

AIM/Advanced concepts bodies are on par with WGP as far as mechanics and fit/finish, the only difference is that they're threaded for angel feednecks, so a wider selection is available as far as feednecks. They will otherwise take any other WGP spec part.

Dragun/Odyssey are a mish-mash of 'cocker style function and spyder spec parts, fit/finish were disregarded in favor of low price point. The idea with these is that every kid who couldn't afford a 'cocker could get a similar functioning marker at 1/2-1/3 the price. If you're not into modding (and by modding I mean making parts meant for other markers fit into these), stay away from them, they will only bring you blood, sweat & tears with no reward other than shame and frustration. That being said, 'cocker pneumatics are for the most part compatible and they take merlin spec valves, so a good sleeper can be made with the right parts/knowledge.

That's about as deep into it as I care to go, if I missed any manufacturer (which I'm guessing I did; not sure if CCM/Works, KAPP, FBM, Hybrid & Macdev were made from WGP blanks), they're probably on par with or better than WGP as far as form and function.

Last edited by tacxplosion : 03-12-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 10:57 AM #4
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Avoid Psycho Ballistics, and Dragun autocockers.

Those are the only two companies that are truly terrible. Post China Freeflows are pretty bad too. Real Freeflows have wire detents, and the china ones have the nut style detents.

Some, like dye, are known to have finniky pneumatics. But those can all be changed out if you don't like them. There are so many though that it would take a long time to list them all.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:28 PM #5
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Wow. thanks guys, this really helps clear up some stuff. I have seen some pics of some of these and it was confusing. Especially when the term "Focker" was attached to the.

Interesting that some Non-WGP body guns still command high prices.
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:29 PM #6
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just because it's not made from a wgp does not mean it's not a cocker
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:45 PM #7
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Where would the ANS chaos series fall into this discussion? WGP spec/non-spec? At all worth their weight in scrap metal as far as functionality and looks? Thanks.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:13 PM #8
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Where would the ANS chaos series fall into this discussion? WGP spec/non-spec? At all worth their weight in scrap metal as far as functionality and looks? Thanks.
They're WGP spec, they have decent quality pneus, on par with WGP's 2k4+ models; except for the ram, ANS's ram is the fastest ram when coupled with QEV's, though the pressure needs to be raised when compared to most other rams. Overall they're slightly better than their WGP counterparts of the same year.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:11 PM #9
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all the ones by AKA and shocktech are worth so much because they made top notch quality products, they were the best of the best at the time and -still- are amazing mech guns.

ive always held wgp and ans parts on par with each other, wgp's stuff just looked better imo...excep the ans x5's...oh god are those sexy.

ive had a psychoballistics cocker before, it wasnt too bad. the ram did leak pretty bad though, dow55 and a fatter o-ring fixed it.....id buy another one if i had parts on hand to change them to something better or wanted a nice light project body.....but i wouldnt pay more than $50 for one unless it was just immaculate or something.

dragons.....lol.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:08 PM #10
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I really enjoyed my Odyssey, especially when I went full Palmers on the pneumatics. That was also when evil detonators were awesome.
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:22 PM #11
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I am begining to think if we could gather all the Paintball Knowledge and put it into a big storage tank. The A/C portion would amount to a very large part of all the accumulated Paintball Knowledge volume.

Man do I have a lot to learn.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:50 PM #12
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For giggles



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Old 03-12-2013, 11:12 PM #13
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That front end is worth about five times as much as the whole rest of the thing.

:/
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Old 03-13-2013, 12:45 PM #14
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It wasn't that bad. I think I paid a hundred or so for the complete gun brand new in 06/07 and maybe $90 for all the Palmer's parts. I had absolutely no problems with the body, the factory pneumatics... that is another story.

It was my second gun after my Spyder AMG LCD.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:13 PM #15
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not gonna lie id like to have one for a mini merlin spec mq2 halfblock.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:04 AM #16
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Originally Posted by stukam17 View Post
Where would the ANS chaos series fall into this discussion? WGP spec/non-spec? At all worth their weight in scrap metal as far as functionality and looks? Thanks.
They are WGP spec but they are not milled from WGP bodies. So they are a focker although a good one. I just never understood why ANS did all that milling and still left them heavier than stock autocockers

It's worth mentioning that CCMs are also consdered fockers.
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Old 03-16-2013, 03:49 AM #17
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"Avoid psychoballistic"

I got mine for $50 and put a $18 used (in perfect condition) tickler lpr on it and it shoots like the rest of em. A lot of these guys talk trash on hearsay or from some rookie that doesn't know his *** from his elbow...

The purists say, "wgp only", that's why they are out of the game right? Sure, steer clear of an out of spec "focker", but don't dog something that works.

Its always, oh... the 3 way leaks, oh the valve seal leaks... don't they all at some point? $.15 and your done. Not upwards of $300 for a great wgp brand whoopty dooooo...

My $68 psycho shoots paint just like any other cocker out there, straight and consistant. Enough said.
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Old 03-16-2013, 08:55 AM #18
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Originally Posted by Cokrkilr View Post
"Avoid psychoballistic"

I got mine for $50 and put a $18 used (in perfect condition) tickler lpr on it and it shoots like the rest of em. A lot of these guys talk trash on hearsay or from some rookie that doesn't know his *** from his elbow...

The purists say, "wgp only", that's why they are out of the game right? Sure, steer clear of an out of spec "focker", but don't dog something that works.

Its always, oh... the 3 way leaks, oh the valve seal leaks... don't they all at some point? $.15 and your done. Not upwards of $300 for a great wgp brand whoopty dooooo...

My $68 psycho shoots paint just like any other cocker out there, straight and consistant. Enough said.
I can agree with you on much of that - the issue with Psychoballistics wasn't "quality" it was "quality control". While the pneumatics often presented an issue (specifically the LPR) there are plenty of bodies and parts that came out fine.

My issue was that at one time I had a fleet of them that I picked up new in box for about $30ish/per from, and while one or two of them worked perfectly, and one or two had LPR issues, there were also a bunch that were "cockeyed" which is to say that the top tube and bottom tube were drilled in different directions rather than perfectly (or close to) parallel.

After doing some research I discovered that there was a large number of bodies that were "blems" or "factory defects" assembled but pulled before they hit market. These ended up in a warehouse and when Psychoballistics, Gameface and Ariakon went under, they were bought up by I&I Sports and ANS. While ANS opted to set up the markers as pumps/snipers and sell them through their vendors as a custom marker (shady), I&I Sports sold them as "New Old Stock, Clearance" or "New Old Stock, No Tags" on Ebay (Very Shady) and when they got returned, they were sold in pieces. Who wouldn't buy a marker brand new for $50-$100 that was $400 a few years ago? Unsuspecting customers.

That seems to be where most of the hate came from. The originals were cheaply made - cheap aluminum, no frills, but functional and a good deal at $400 compared to what WGP offered at the time. The blem models being sold as "new" after the company went under were garbage; often nonfunctional.
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Old 03-16-2013, 09:20 AM #19
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Originally Posted by Cokrkilr View Post
"Avoid psychoballistic"
Its always, oh... the 3 way leaks, oh the valve seal leaks... don't they all at some point? $.15 and your done. Not upwards of $300 for a great wgp brand whoopty dooooo...

My $68 psycho shoots paint just like any other cocker out there, straight and consistant. Enough said.
The point is it shouldn't be doing that out of the box and you don't always get a chance to go over the tolerances until you've already bought it and you're trying to get a new valve/hammer/bolt to fit so it can work "like any other cocker out there", but it just so happens that the tube you're trying to put the new part into is out of spec and it either doesn't fit or doesn't seal even with a new set of o'rings (I own 4 PB 3-ways and 1 of them never seals even with new o'rings and dow55, bought them for the o'rings for my SystemX 3-way before I found a better source for o'rings, I've aired them up for a project mech spool I've been thinking of that I never got around to making).

It's good to hear that yours hasn't given you any issues, but it's not uncommon for them to do so:
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...uperbolt+valve
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...uperbolt+valve (yes part of the problem is that it's his first)
http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...uperbolt+valve

and this is on the first results page for "superbolt valve".

With how cheap most 'cockers are nowadays, you can't really justify picking up a superbolt or lightning over say a 2002 vert feed or ANS GX3 or AIM body, any of which can be had for $75-$100 other than for looks.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:34 PM #20
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I think if it's built Right I will take a focker over a wgp any day.
I love my Custom Merlin Based.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:35 AM #21
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I understand the parts should work out of the box, but really, we are talking about $50 markers that 90% function out of the box..

What about 10 years ago when a $1000 Kapp cocker took a week to get running out of the box because they just got fancy stuff slapped on them?

My point is, they all work or have the ability to work flawlessly, id be more pissed about my high end not working that has all the bells and whistles than sweating $60-$70 and some tinkering... that's what old school paintball is all about right, tinkering?
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