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Old 01-15-2013, 06:58 PM #64
licence2kill
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We spent more in the 80's and 90's servicing our debt than we do today.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:00 PM #65
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
So not only would we have to come up with enough additional tax revenue to get to a balanced budget, we would then also have to get a big enough surplus to pay for our debts within a reasonable amount of time?

Are you one of those people who racks up debt because they expect to be a millionaire somewhere down the road and that they will pay for it "when things are better?"
I don't know about all that, but seeing as we just escaped a nasty recession, now doesn't seem to me like the best time to redirect our funds from investing in America, to paying off a debt that currently has a negative real interest rate.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:27 PM #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
So not only would we have to come up with enough additional tax revenue to get to a balanced budget, we would then also have to get a big enough surplus to pay for our debts within a reasonable amount of time?

Are you one of those people who racks up debt because they expect to be a millionaire somewhere down the road and that they will pay for it "when things are better?"
This reads like a chain email.
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Old 01-15-2013, 07:53 PM #67
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Originally Posted by IgnoranceInABag View Post
i think everyone should be "pro buisness"..... and i just proclaimed it by myself, so i guess so.
Huh, don't know why the other 2/3 of the post you quoted didn't publish. Now I can't remember what I said
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Old 01-15-2013, 08:04 PM #68
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Revolt doesn't happen when people expect horrible treatment. Revolt happens when people don't get the treatment they think they are supposed to be getting.
Yes
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Old 01-15-2013, 09:39 PM #69
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Originally Posted by spracks21 View Post
I don't know about all that, but seeing as we just escaped a nasty recession, now doesn't seem to me like the best time to redirect our funds from investing in America, to paying off a debt that currently has a negative real interest rate.
Right now we don't even have a plan not to mention even if we had one we could never get it through congress. I am not saying we need to pay it off tomorrow but we are digging deeper.

We can't keep living off credit/debt. Yes a certain amount is okay but we exceed that long ago. We are so accustomed to writing the check and finding out where to fund it from after the fact rather than the other way around.

The wake up call is going to be rough but we have to tell people no. It is like the Government is a kid in a candy store and any time we try and say "No more money" we just take out another credit card in addition to the 75 we already have and raise the debt ceiling again.

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Old 01-15-2013, 10:09 PM #70
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Originally Posted by licence2kill View Post
Do you think the GOP will really fail to raise the debt ceiling sending us into technical default, destroying the world economy?
I hope so
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:10 PM #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Right now we don't even have a plan not to mention even if we had one we could never get it through congress. I am not saying we need to pay it off tomorrow but we are digging deeper.

We can't keep living off credit/debt. Yes a certain amount is okay but we exceed that long ago. We are so accustomed to writing the check and finding out where to fund it from after the fact rather than the other way around.

The wake up call is going to be rough but we have to tell people no. It is like the Government is a kid in a candy store and any time we try and say "No more money" we just take out another credit card in addition to the 75 we already have and raise the debt ceiling again.
Can you please stop making things up off the top of your head in my thread? thanks
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:26 PM #72
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
The value of the dollar collapses when China calls the debt we owe to it. Hyper inflation.
Lolz. The debt scare is soooooo rooted in misinformation that all I can do is laugh. If you don't understand basic concepts, how can you expect to have real conversations?
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:27 PM #73
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Pretty soon none of this will matter. We will hit a real debt limit soon in the form of nobody wanting to buy our debt and or our dollar collapses. Your investments will go splat, the goverment as we know it collapse. Then...no more obama phone cus romney suck.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:28 PM #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Right now we don't even have a plan not to mention even if we had one we could never get it through congress. I am not saying we need to pay it off tomorrow but we are digging deeper.

We can't keep living off credit/debt. Yes a certain amount is okay but we exceed that long ago. We are so accustomed to writing the check and finding out where to fund it from after the fact rather than the other way around.

The wake up call is going to be rough but we have to tell people no. It is like the Government is a kid in a candy store and any time we try and say "No more money" we just take out another credit card in addition to the 75 we already have and raise the debt ceiling again.
wat

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Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
MatrixBaller04 AKA EricS6661: I can guarantee something will happen between now and February 9th.
yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:50 PM #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by licence2kill View Post
Can you please stop making things up off the top of your head in my thread? thanks
Please tell me what I am "making up"

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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Lolz. The debt scare is soooooo rooted in misinformation that all I can do is laugh. If you don't understand basic concepts, how can you expect to have real conversations?
Foreign governments own $5.5 trillion of our debt. Do they currently have motivation to reduce their stake in our government? Probably not. Will they at some point in the future? Yes.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...uments/mfh.txt

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Originally Posted by vsekvsek View Post
Pretty soon none of this will matter. We will hit a real debt limit soon in the form of nobody wanting to buy our debt and or our dollar collapses. Your investments will go splat, the goverment as we know it collapse. Then...no more obama phone cus romney suck.
Thank you for your voice of reason. That was my point about or credit rating going down the ****ter.
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Old 01-15-2013, 10:53 PM #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Lolz. The debt scare is soooooo rooted in misinformation that all I can do is laugh. If you don't understand basic concepts, how can you expect to have real conversations?
Basically. It's so difficult to understand why people feel the need to comment on complex mechanics they obviously do not understand, even partially. China is going to "call" Obama and demand their premature bonds be redeemed....huh?... Let me know how worried you are that your bank is going to call tomorrow and demand your entire mortgage balance, buddy. The real issue is depressed purchasing, they probably didn't explain that in his high school econ class, and the GOP failing to raise the pointless ceiling to allow a larger pool of money for the US economy to grow.
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Overbear: better 10 innocent men be convicted, than a single guilty man go free to commit more crime.
Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
MatrixBaller04 AKA EricS6661: I can guarantee something will happen between now and February 9th.
yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:09 PM #77
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Foreign governments own $5.5 trillion of our debt. Do they currently have motivation to reduce their stake in our government? Probably not. Will they at some point in the future? Yes.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...uments/mfh.txt
I was referring to the notion that China can "call in" their debt. That's why I underlined it...
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:10 PM #78
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Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
Basically. It's so difficult to understand why people feel the need to comment on complex mechanics they obviously do not understand, even partially. China is going to "call" Obama and demand their premature bonds be redeemed....huh?... Let me know how worried you are that your bank is going to call tomorrow and demand your entire mortgage balance, buddy. The real issue is depressed purchasing, they probably didn't explain that in his high school econ class, and the GOP failing to raise the pointless ceiling to allow a larger pool of money for the US economy to grow.
I already said that currently they do not have a reason to reduce their investment in us:

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If the decide to stop reinvesting in said bonds, how are we going to pay for it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
Please tell me what I am "making up"



Foreign governments own $5.5 trillion of our debt. Do they currently have motivation to reduce their stake in our government? Probably not. Will they at some point in the future? Yes.

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-cen...uments/mfh.txt
Once again you keep saying the debt ceiling is pointless. It isn't. When has there ever been a good, successful business model that has continually lived of debt? Never because people eventually start wanting their money back. Do you honestly think running deficits every year is a good thing? Forget about the current debt. Say it was 0. do you honestly think a viable plan for our country is continual budget deficits?

I realize this problem is not an easy solution nor is it a quick one. But for christ's sake you aren't even realizing it is a problem. You are actively promoting the increase of our debt. Can we go on like this for a few years? Certainly. A decade? Probably. But some **** has got to change. Like I have said many times before, for some reason Americans think we are invincible and that some how things "will be ok". I guarantee you that is how every citizen has felt in every country that no longer exists because it did stupid **** and thought it wouldn't matter.


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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I was referring to the notion that China can "call in" their debt. That's why I underlined it...
Ah yes I did not mean on the spot. Somewhere in one of my posts I further described it as stopping their reinvestment.

Last edited by benji25 : 01-15-2013 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:16 PM #79
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Deficits are not an issue when production outpaces new debt.
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Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
MatrixBaller04 AKA EricS6661: I can guarantee something will happen between now and February 9th.
yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:16 PM #80
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The value of the dollar collapses when China calls the debt we owe to it. Hyper inflation.
So when China stops talking on our debt, we would immediately take on hyper inflation. You do realize Japan held more of our debt than China until 2007, right?

Also, how is China stopping their reinvestment any different than what the GOP is doing now by not raising the debt ceiling? Then, we definitely should raise the debt ceiling!
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:23 PM #81
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Also, how is China stopping their reinvestment any different than what the GOP is doing now by not raising the debt ceiling? Then, we definitely should raise the debt ceiling!
In a few decades our debt will collapse the economy so let's default now!
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yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.
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Old 01-15-2013, 11:30 PM #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
Deficits are not an issue when production outpaces new debt.
Elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
So when China stops talking on our debt, we would immediately take on hyper inflation. You do realize Japan held more of our debt than China until 2007, right?

Also, how is China stopping their reinvestment any different than what the GOP is doing now by not raising the debt ceiling? Then, we definitely should raise the debt ceiling!
Not immediately but we would have to find a way to pay for it which would mean a **** ton of new public investors or finding the money in our own internal revenue which definitely won't happen unless we just print money.

And China stopping their reinvestment is different because it is normal and expected to eventually want your money back from an investment. The GOP raising the debt ceiling is technically an option, but is it the right option? IMO no. Think of it like credit cards. We have 5 and we are getting close to our max. Do we just keep adding cards in the hope that we never have to pay or do we look at our spending habits and realize "**** we are spending money we don't have."

Eventually some is going to realize we aren't a smart financial investment. When that happens we are ****ed.

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In a few decades our debt will collapse the economy so let's default now!
I have said numerous times it is not an easy or immediate fix. If you go back to my main point it was that we don't even have a plan. I am not asking us to bankrupt ourselves over the next 5 years. However we need a god damn plan because it is simply not feasible to run deficits year after year (in addition to our current debt) and expect some magical solution to come from no where.

Last edited by benji25 : 01-15-2013 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 01-16-2013, 12:03 AM #83
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Once again you keep saying the debt ceiling is pointless. It isn't.
It most certainly is. It's a pointless limit that is used as a bargaining tool to get what the vocal minority wants at the potential cost of the US economy. Look at what ****ty deal had to be made with the GOP to raise the limit, it almost pushed us into a recession with sequestration. All it accomplishes is that it places a cap on the amount of bonds the Treasury can sell that Congress already appreciated. That is pointless.

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When has there ever been a good, successful business model that has continually lived of debt? Never because people eventually start wanting their money back.
The US is not a business, it is not a household. Do not compare them. Investors do get their money back... when bonds mature and interest is paid...

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Do you honestly think running deficits every year is a good thing? Forget about the current debt. Say it was 0. do you honestly think a viable plan for our country is continual budget deficits?
Yeeeeah, you do what we have been doing for decades. You grow the economy at a 3-4% rate and pay your debts in time as the economy has grown substantially, comparatively.

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Elaborate.
It's rather self explanatory. GDP increases, tax revenue increases, fast forward 30 years and bond redemption is paid. In 30 years our GDP will be around $30T assuming a small ~2% increase annually. It really isn't complicated. Large bond payments happen quite often. I remember the first time a year or two ago when the GOP refused to raise the ceiling and a rather large debt payment to investors around $100B was approaching. The Treasury almost had to not give old people money for medicine because they would have needed to pay investors instead because they could not create more debt. But it's important we have limits!

How vocal will you be when our debt hits $100T? Maybe you'll have learned a thing or two by then.

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I have said numerous times it is not an easy or immediate fix. If you go back to my main point it was that we don't even have a plan. I am not asking us to bankrupt ourselves over the next 5 years. However we need a god damn plan because it is simply not feasible to run deficits year after year (in addition to our current debt) and expect some magical solution to come from no where.
Why do you keep saying we don't have a plan? Do you mean to say you do not understand?
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Overbear: better 10 innocent men be convicted, than a single guilty man go free to commit more crime.
Overbear: I prefer that I be given a license to shoot anyone who would pick socialism or communism over the basic freedoms inherent to consumerism.
MatrixBaller04 AKA EricS6661: I can guarantee something will happen between now and February 9th.
yesme: i'm not saying you should invest in gold first off, you would be much better off to invest in food,stuff you use and will keep for a couple of years, like razors
Blake360: in highschool, my teacher's father worked for the CIA and she brought my class documents proving the Roswell crash was of extraterrestrial origin.

Last edited by AlphaNeo36 : 01-16-2013 at 12:06 AM.
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Old 01-16-2013, 01:27 AM #84
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Benji, no one has a plan for what to do 50 years down the road because its impossible to project what the world will look like at that time period.

Imagine crafting economic policy in the 1960's for the conditions you imagine in 2010, it's utterly pointless.
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