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Old 01-19-2013, 09:39 PM #295
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
RELS/Phil -> Graduate school (in progress)
and you want to talk economics?

Please explain to me what i dont understand about this transaction. What he described is not communism.

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Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
So, a government sells a bond for $10, its balance is ($10). It purchases a widget for $10 from an artisan. Government imposes a 100% tax. Tax revenue of $10 and pays off debt. GDP would have been $10 but it imposed a 100% tax and paid off balance to $0. GDP is the vehicle through which the government pays debt.

That's why I said it doesn't make sense, it will never happen, money doesn't mean anything, communism, etc. I don't know how many times I can say the same thing.
This is not comunism

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Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
So, a government sells a bond for $10, its balance is ($10). It purchases a widget for $10 from an artisan. Government imposes a 100% tax. Tax revenue of $10 and pays off debt. GDP would have been $10 but it imposed a 100% tax and paid off balance to $0. GDP is the vehicle through which the government pays debt..
Nobody would ever do this. This is not realistic and makes zero sense. This statement does not even belong in a economic discussion because it is a waste of time even talking about it.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:49 PM #296
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and you want to talk economics?
Not sure how you didn't catch this:

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Took some econ.
How many hours econ classes did you take for that accounting degree?

---

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Please explain to me what i dont understand about this transaction.
I truly don't see how it can be made any simpler. And, as I just said, I like to let LTK and Alpha handle the econ discussions. I just follow. But after pages of going in circles, I couldn't help but make fun. It's not like we were going anywhere.
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Old 01-19-2013, 09:51 PM #297
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What you are trying to tell me is that you think that in communism, the government sells a bond for 10 dollars, purchases a good, applies a 100% tax rate to the good, and pays the bond back? is that what you are trying to tell me? ok buddy. you certainly know what you are talking about. I will leave now since i am completely outclassed.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:45 PM #298
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maybe i am just completely retarded.
.
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Old 01-19-2013, 10:49 PM #299
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Typical douche. Completely outclassed in an argument and results to petty tactics. LOL. Butthurt because you dont know what the **** you are talking about? sorry buddy.

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.
This is how you know you have lost an argument.
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Old 01-19-2013, 11:05 PM #300
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:27 PM #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlphaNeo36 View Post
More or less

This is probably why people say communism is great on paper but fails in practice.
So you are saying you can "tax GDP" for one year to pay the debt. Then you are saying 100% tax = communism. Then you say communism "fails in practice". So really you are saying we can't tax GDP because it fails in practice.

Therefore you cannot tax GDP.

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Old 01-20-2013, 05:32 PM #302
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Umm

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This isn't an argument of feasibility. It's of theory.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:47 PM #303
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So you are saying you can "tax GDP" for one year to pay the debt. Then you are saying 100% tax = communism. Then you say communism "fails in practice". So really you are saying we can't tax GDP because it fails in practice.

Therefore you cannot tax GDP.
You cannot "tax GDP" for one year to pay the debt, but not for the reason you stated. The reason you cannot "tax GDP" for one year to pay the debt is because GDP is a retrospective number at the end of the year that sums up transactions. At the end of the year, the tax revenue that is brought into the government is already determined, when the GDP is determined. The second the new year begins, GDP has already been calculated (and exists, although may not have been determined), and so has tax revenue to the government (even though the IRS might not know the specific number, the number will eventually be determined and that number can not change). The tax rates are set at the beggining of the year, and depending on those non changing tax rates, the GDP number of 16T is formed (through supply and demand prices). You cannot change the tax rates on a year of transactions that have already occured. If you did change tax rates, those numbers would be towards the NEXT year's GDP and therefore would not be on the past years 16T dollar GDP. You cannot simply tax the 16T dollar GDP of the year's past and take that money in as income. That isnt how it works. Email this to your PHD economist professor if you think I am wrong, and post his response.

Yes components of GDP are taxed, but that occurs during the year. GDP is 16T because tax rates, if tax rates were 100%, GDP would never hit 16T. Therefore you would never be able to tax 100% of 16T of GDP.

This is what I have been arguing for like what 7 pages now?
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:48 PM #304
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Umm
So what ****ing good does it do us if we can't ever do it?

In theory we could just print $16 trillion dollars.
In theory we could just decide never to pay anyone back.
In theory we could just make everyone chip in money, right now and pay it off.
In theory the government could go into our bank accounts and steal it all and pay it off.

The whole point of this argument was that we could do to pay down the debt. Your "theory" doesn't work on paper and it doesn't work in actuality.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:54 PM #305
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The whole point of this argument was that we could do to pay down the debt.
It hasn't been that for some 4 pages now. It was an argument against suckaT's claim of impossibility.
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Old 01-20-2013, 05:57 PM #306
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It hasn't been that for some 4 pages now. It was an argument against suckaT's claim of impossibility.
AlphaNeo36 still thinks that the government could tax 100% of last years GDP of 16T to pay the debt off in one year. He believes this and when his argument fails he posts pictures of an ape. This has been the argument for >4 pages.

It is not even possible in theory.
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Old 01-20-2013, 06:58 PM #307
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It hasn't been that for some 4 pages now. It was an argument against suckaT's claim of impossibility.
Let's say we have an economy of 3 people. Person A, B and C. Person A pays $10 for goods from B. Person B then spends this money as well by buying $10 of stuff from person C. Assume there is no government spending, no investment and no exports/imports.

Using the expenditure approach to calculating GDP, you have the following equation:

Y = C + I + G + (X − M)

GDP (Y) is a sum of Consumption (C), Investment (I), Government Spending (G) and Net Exports (X – M).

GDP= $20 + 0 + 0 + (0-0)

So you are saying that we tax $20, when there is only $10 in the economy.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:05 PM #308
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It hasn't been that for some 4 pages now. It was an argument against suckaT's claim of impossibility.
Impossibility is irrelevant to the analogy, it's just what figure represents the income. And it's the GDP figure, not the tax revenue figure. That's all there is to it.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:25 PM #309
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Impossibility is irrelevant to the analogy, it's just what figure represents the income. And it's the GDP figure, not the tax revenue figure. That's all there is to it.
No. The income in the analogy is the dollars that are able to pay expenses. Just like a person's salary. A salary is total money that is able to pay for expenses. That is what government income would be. Money able to pay for expenses. That is what a salary is. Money able to pay for expenses. GDP is not the available money to be paid for expenses. The GDP figure of 16 trillion is not available to be spent on government expenses (aka federal debt). As we have already stated, GDP is dependent on the tax rates set at the beggining of the year. 16T is not available to be taken as government taxes because the government cannot tax 100% of GDP at 16T. If you raised government taxes to 100%, the GDP of the country would not be close to 16T. GDP is not considered income of the government in the scope of paying federal debt, therefore is irrelevant in the discusion of income to the ability of paying the debt. The government in no way shape or form could have a tax revenue of 16T dollars in a single fiscal year (no matter what the tax rate was).

In a theoretical household scenario, the household income (salary) could be 100% paid toward debt of the government (mortgage), and in your scenario, the mortgage could be paid off in 1 year if 100% of the income was paid toward the mortgage, but we just proved that the GDP of 16 trillion could never be attained in governmental income, therefore the government could never pay off all of debt in one year, therefore in the analogy, household income is governmental income NOT GDP.


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Old 01-20-2013, 07:35 PM #310
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No. The income in the analogy is the dollars that are able to pay expenses. Just like a person's salary. A salary is total money that is able to pay for expenses.
And that figure is the GDP, not the taxation. Regardless of what effect taxation would have on the GDP, the GDP is the income figure, not the taxation. Taxation could be 100% and the GDP could fall 50%, and the GDP would still be the income figure. The taxation is an allocative subset of the economy's total income/economic value.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:39 PM #311
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And that figure is the GDP, not the taxation. Regardless of what effect taxation would have on the GDP, the GDP is the income figure, not the taxation. It could be 100% and the GDP could fall 50%, and the GDP would still be the income figure. The taxation is an allocative subset of the economy's total income/economic value.
But you can't have that money. Could the government have $16T if everything was paid to them in a year? No because GDP of $16T does not mean $16T is coming in the door as described in my equation above.

GDP is the amount of spending/income in an economy. However (as shown above) there is not $16T actually there, so therefore the government cannot have it, because it isn't there. So you then can't call it income, because there isn't $16T there to have.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:42 PM #312
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And that figure is the GDP, not the taxation. Regardless of what effect taxation would have on the GDP, the GDP is the income figure, not the taxation. Taxation could be 100% and the GDP could fall 50%, and the GDP would still be the income figure. The taxation is an allocative subset of the economy's total income/economic value.
No brother. Income can always be paid towards expenses. A salary is what the income would be. When the DEBT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, is the liability, the income available to pay the liability is what the income would be in the analogy. GDP is never available to pay expense. ONLY TAXES is what is availabile to pay debt, therefore TAX DOLLARS RECIEVED is the only thing that can be considered income in the analogy. Your argument holds no water.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:44 PM #313
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Let's say we have an economy of 3 people. Person A, B and C. Person A pays $10 for goods from B. Person B then spends this money as well by buying $10 of stuff from person C. Assume there is no government spending, no investment and no exports/imports.
This example is awful, because you never said anything was produced. The GDP would be 0 because this was only transfer of wealth and goods; not production. If the "good" and the "stuff" was produced (which you never said they were), it costed money to produce it (labor, resources, etc) which would be taxes.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:44 PM #314
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But you can't have that money. Could the government have $16T if everything was paid to them in a year? No because GDP of $16T does not mean $16T is coming in the door as described in my equation above.

GDP is the amount of spending/income in an economy. However (as shown above) there is not $16T actually there, so therefore the government cannot have it, because it isn't there. So you then can't call it income, because there isn't $16T there to have.
It is the income figure in the same way that you can't devote 100% of your income to debts or you'll end up homeless and jobless. That doesn't change the fact that it is the income figure.

It might help to come from the other angle -- current taxation is DEFINITELY not the only money available.
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Old 01-20-2013, 07:46 PM #315
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It hasn't been that for some 4 pages now. It was an argument against suckaT's claim of impossibility.
Nice to see everyone isn't retarded.

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