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View Poll Results: Wiretapping - Unconstitutional?
Yes this law is unconstitutional, dangerous, and should be elimnated 18 94.74%
This law is unconstitutional, but justified because times have changed 1 5.26%
This law is not unconstitutional and Congress has a right to pass this law 0 0%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-10-2013, 09:09 PM #1
Tuff
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Is warrantless wiretapping unconstitutional?



Judge Napolitano talk about how Obama supports action that is clearly against the 4th Amendment. The 4th Amendment reads:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized"

How do people feel about this measure? Do the circumstances give the president the right to do this? Have the times changed so much from the writing of the Constitution that certain laws need to be reevaluated? The video clearly mentions that this is set to focus on people talking to people overseas, but what would be stopping Obama (or a future president) from simply, easily, using this on American citizens?

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Old 01-10-2013, 10:00 PM #2
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The video clearly mentions that this is set to focus on people talking to people overseas, but what would be stopping Obama (or a future president) from simply, easily, using this on American citizens?
This is silly. What would stop the president from attacking Miami with the troops? What would stop the President from dropping a nuke on the USA? What would stop him from doing just about anything? If we can trust a man with such immense power, why would we not trust him with simple wiretapping?

I am not saying that I agree with the practice of wiretapping foreign calls, but I object to the notion that is is wrong because he could abuse that power against the people.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:09 AM #3
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I've always found it naive to assume that warrantless tapping only occurred after this was signed into law.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:21 AM #4
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If we can trust a man with such immense power, why would we not trust him with simple wiretapping?
What do you mean "we"? You need to learn to speak for yourself.
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:54 AM #5
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Well hell, why not have him search my underwear drawer since his is so trustworthy?

Fools give up a lot because they understand so little.
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Old 01-11-2013, 06:59 AM #6
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Hasn't anything wireless (cellphone) been free game already?

My criminal justice prof mentioned that a few years ago.
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:54 AM #7
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Well hell, why not have him search my underwear drawer since his is so trustworthy?
Why not give him the ability to destroy the entire ****ing world if he wishes... oh wait! Seriously, if you are not going to trust political figures, your priorities are way out of wack.

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Fools give up a lot because they understand so little.
I don't quite understand this. Can you explain that to me in terms of steel chairs over a campfire?
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:11 AM #8
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He will have to consult the fire sprinkler salesman first. It might take a while.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:49 AM #9
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Seriously, if you are not going to trust political figures, your priorities are way out of wack.
since when have carreer politicians been seen as trustworthy?
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:52 PM #10
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since when have carreer politicians been seen as trustworthy?
We are talking about different types of trust. Not whether they lie or watergate. We are talking about trusting them with great responsibility and power. No one in the world has the ability to ultimately tear us down more than the president. We trust them with nuclear weapons. We trust them with a military. Considering, it should be easy to trust them not to abuse a foreign wire tapping program on people. My point is priorities. If you don't trust them to wire tap, how can you possible trust them with nuclear weapons. You should be outraged. You should demand the deactivation of such a threat.

Government cannot function, military cannot exist, and economies cannot run with an implicit trust of those in power to not destroy us all.

How are you people not getting this? Read and think before you post.
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Last edited by TheSilentAssassin : 01-11-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:01 PM #11
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i fully understand, but i trust the president with the nukes because there is almost 0 chance of them being used against our own people or even used at all, but wire taps and things that are deemed "less damaging" are used much more frivolously
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:05 PM #12
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i fully understand, but i trust the president with the nukes because there is almost 0 chance of them being used against our own people or even used at all, but wire taps and things that are deemed "less damaging" are used much more frivolously
The point here is whether a controversial and heavily watched program will abuse its power on us citizens illegally. I would say that its far from likely. There are a million groups chomping at the bit to take this down and everyone knows that.
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:11 PM #13
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the point here is actually if watching a citizen without a warrant is an invasion of privacy. which i believe it is.
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:14 PM #14
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the point here is actually if watching a citizen without a warrant is an invasion of privacy. which i believe it is.
My point that was one of his premises was flawed (which i clearly quoted). I showed why. I already said that I don't agree with the practice of wiretapping foreign calls, but I object to the notion that is is wrong simply because the misnomer that he could potentially abuse that power against american citizens (all power could be potentially abused against american citizens).
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:35 PM #15
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Hardly is my premise flawed, it's always the little programs that get abused.

Remember when the black panthers were not supposed to being watched? Or remember when .gov stooges did not infiltrate political groups?

Trust our leaders?

I think our founders said it best, when they said always question, never blindly trust.

Say silent, which "watchdog" group was given access to oversee this program for the american public?
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:37 PM #16
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that he could potentially abuse that power
Right, because over a thousand years of human behavior and government actions have not born this out already.

Remember folks, THIS time is different............i swear
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:43 PM #17
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Hardly is my premise flawed, it's always the little programs that get abused.
I was referring to tuff's premise not yours but I guess they run the same.

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Remember when the black panthers were not supposed to being watched? Or remember when .gov stooges did not infiltrate political groups?

Trust our leaders?

I think our founders said it best, when they said always question, never blindly trust.
Explain to me how a democratic government can even exist without an implicit trust. Hint: It cannot. By your logic, the only conclusion is anarchy.

Also, you are ignoring this: "We are talking about different types of trust." Please try to understand an argument before you criticize it.
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Old 01-11-2013, 01:48 PM #18
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Explain to me how a democratic government can even exist without an implicit trust. Hint: It cannot.
Sweet, good thing we live in a republic then, and like our republic loving founders said MANY times.....trust the government lose your freedom and possibly your life.

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Also, you are ignoring this: "We are talking about different types of trust." Please try to understand an argument before you criticize it.
Yeah, i dont trust them on either issue[i do realize that it would be a whole hell of a lot harder to nuke chicago then to tap joe smith's phone though). i do find it funny you think because we can trust them to not try to force the armed forces against their will to kill citizens, we should trust them to not cheat on their wife.
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:01 PM #19
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Sweet, good thing we live in a republic then, and like our republic loving founders said MANY times.....trust the government lose your freedom and possibly your life.
Republic and representative democracy are not mutually exclusive. They define different aspects of our government. We are both a democracy (a representative one) and a republic. Your high school understanding of political science is laughable. You are essentially saying that a car isn't a Ferrari because it is red.

Seriously, this is one of the worst misnomers of the american public. I believe a basic understanding of political science should be a requirement to vote.

---

Also, you didn't answer my question. How can a democratic government exist without implicit trust?

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Yeah, i dont trust them on either issue[i do realize that it would be a whole hell of a lot harder to nuke chicago then to tap joe smith's phone though). i do find it funny you think because we can trust them to not try to force the armed forces against their will to kill citizens, we should trust them to not cheat on their wife.
You still aren't understanding. "We (you and me) are talking about different types of trust". I am referring to a specific thing. You are ignoring that, straw-manning me, and looking dumb. Stop, read, understand, then post.
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:23 PM #20
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A discussion about government trust with a drug induced paranoia conspiracy theorist?



*notice how the steel chair folds like a controlled demolition
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:26 PM #21
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You would wonder why I bother? (Probably just because it's funny to be honest. I really don't expect this to go much of anywhere)
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