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View Poll Results: Military size should be reduced?
Yes 26 63.41%
No 15 36.59%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-13-2013, 11:00 PM #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pump Revolution View Post
Do you think the U.S. should downsize it's military?

Aside from some minor incidents in WWII, the continental U.S. hasn't been attacked by another country since 1848.
Guess WWII was minor ?
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:02 PM #86
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Originally Posted by UNDRPRVLGD_V2 View Post

Guess WWII was minor ?
Do you know what Continental US means?
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:12 PM #87
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Yeah, tell that to the nearly 3000 service members that were killed that day they were part of the US because they were on a island.
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:48 AM #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Essentially this:

Hooray misleading statistics!
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Old 01-14-2013, 08:52 AM #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNDRPRVLGD_V2 View Post
Guess WWII was minor ?
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Originally Posted by UNDRPRVLGD_V2 View Post
Yeah, tell that to the nearly 3000 service members that were killed that day they were part of the US because they were on a island.
Aside from a few small submarine fired shells inflicting slight material damage and fire balloons cause 6 fire related deaths there were no attacks to the continental U.S.

As for Pearl Harbor, despite multiple warnings the military chose to do nothing to prevent the disaster. Pearl Harbor was a one time tactical strike on an offshore military outpost, not an invasion.
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Old 01-14-2013, 09:59 AM #90
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Originally Posted by Pump Revolution View Post
World police: Ground forces are needed to enact our will.

National Defense: WOMD and technology handle that.

I should have been more specific in the OP, I believe the U.S. should cut back on foreign intervention and focus more on the home front.
You're entire premise is based on two incorrect assumptions. Firstly, that our military only serves the purpose of national defense. Secondly, that we are engaged in "world Police" action as the movie Team America portrays it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:29 AM #91
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Hooray misleading statistics!
Nothing misleading about it.
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Old 01-14-2013, 11:38 AM #92
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Hooray misleading statistics!
Barrel this is the second time in this thread that you have claimed that my argument is unsound but gave no reason as to why. First defense spending and now this. I'm not quite sure the purpose of these "oh you're wrong" and then disappear posts. If I am mistaken, there is nothing more that I would want then to be shown my mistake.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:13 PM #93
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Barrel this is the second time in this thread that you have claimed that my argument is unsound but gave no reason as to why. First defense spending and now this. I'm not quite sure the purpose of these "oh you're wrong" and then disappear posts. If I am mistaken, there is nothing more that I would want then to be shown my mistake.
The problem with that graph is it's Federal dollars spent. That means its counting money spent on military bases, National forests and parks, the federal highway and interstate maint fund, as well as money spend on welfair, and medicaid.

Pretty much any state that has a lot of highways, governemnt owned land, and a low population is a sure win even if they have a low number of people on socialist programs (ie North Dakota, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana).
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:20 PM #94
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The problem with that graph is it's Federal dollars spent. That means its counting money spent on military bases, National forests and parks, the federal highway and interstate maint fund, as well as money spend on welfair, and medicaid.

Pretty much any state that has a lot of highways, governemnt owned land, and a low population is a sure win even if they have a low number of people on socialist programs (ie North Dakota, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana).
First, why not include those highways, military bases, and parks. It is federal money being spend on things that give tremendous economic advantage. Plus this isn't looking at which states spend the most. It's looking at which states spend the most in comparison to how much they give. I see that as very relevant.

P.S. Those states (ie North Dakota, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana) spend plenty on social welfare per capita.

Also, the same thing can be seen when looking at simply social welfare money:
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:26 PM #95
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Look at the raw data.

How much is each state given?
What is the population of each state? (this determines how much the citizens of said state have given the federal government)

The graphical representation posted leaves population out of the equation, completely. It is extremely important to understanding what is going on with those numbers.


TL:dr - you are telling me, with that image, that states with higher populations and/or mean wages give more than states with lower population and/or mean wages. It paints a quarter of the picture.


I'm also at work, so it can be a bit difficult for me to scour the interwebs looking for data to fill in these (should be obvious) holes. I can't concede a point if I'm not given enough data to make the educated connection.

You're essentially giving me this

and telling me 9 people ate, but it wasn't equal. I can't solve the equation.
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Last edited by barrel roll : 01-14-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:45 PM #96
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Gathering data



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Last edited by barrel roll : 01-14-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 12:48 PM #97
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Still scouring for data, need:

amount spent by Federal Gov in each state
list of natural disasters and what have you for 2005, and states effected
place biases (my own, included) in back pocket - eg retirees in FL, etc etc etc
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Last edited by barrel roll : 01-14-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:13 PM #98
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
Look at the raw data.

How much is each state given?
What is the population of each state? (this determines how much the citizens of said state have given the federal government)

The graphical representation posted leaves population out of the equation, completely. It is extremely important to understanding what is going on with those numbers.


TL:dr - you are telling me, with that image, that states with higher populations and/or mean wages give more than states with lower population and/or mean wages. It paints a quarter of the picture.


I'm also at work, so it can be a bit difficult for me to scour the interwebs looking for data to fill in these (should be obvious) holes. I can't concede a point if I'm not given enough data to make the educated connection.

You're essentially giving me this
[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-G4yItnCssE/TMj5mqMv1bI/AAAAAAAAANE/R9gwIAg7LWg/s400/cherry-pie-recipe.jpg[/img
and telling me 9 people ate, but it wasn't equal. I can't solve the equation.
Population is irrelevant if it is adjusted for amount given. We are not looking at which states take the most. We are looking at which states take more than they give. Stop ignoring that distinction.

Quote:
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Essentially net transfers from blue states to red ones.
LTK hit it. All of the states pay into this federal pot and then all of the states take out of it. Some take more than they put in. Some put in more than they take out. So, that can be seen as essentially some states just giving at a net loss (the amount they give minus the amount they receive) while others are taking at a net gain. It is just net transfers between states (most often blue to red). Population doesn't matter.

--

Also, don't act like an ***. It is unnecessary.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:33 PM #99
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
First, why not include those highways, military bases, and parks. It is federal money being spend on things that give tremendous economic advantage. Plus this isn't looking at which states spend the most. It's looking at which states spend the most in comparison to how much they give. I see that as very relevant.
Ok lets look at Wyoming alone. Over all size its the 10th largest. Per capita its the smallest. The Federal Government ownes and miantains 48% of the entire state. Some 121,808 km^2 orth of land.

Just to put that in perspective the Federal governmnet maintains more land in Wyoming than the entire land mass of Rhode Island, Connecticut, Mass, Vermont, New Hamp, and New Jersey combined (total land mass 116,621 km^s).

No kidding the Federal Goverment is spending more money than it is collecting in Wyoming.


Quote:
P.S. Those states (ie North Dakota, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana) spend plenty on social welfare per capita.

Also, the same thing can be seen when looking at simply social welfare money:
To be honest I'm not sure what your trying to tell me as the 4 states I referrenced are in all 4 quartiles. Secondly is that per capita? Total spending? What?
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:39 PM #100
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Interesting op Ed piece on this topic


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...ed-states.html


Quote from article:
But the counties that received the highest per-capita spending in the category “other direct payments” voted for George W. Bush. “Other direct payments” includes Medicaid, food stamps, crop subsidies, housing assistance and many other programs that people generally think of as “welfare.”

Yadda yadda yadda

All of this is made possible by the Constitution. The separation of powers between the president and Congress also separates national interests represented by the president from local interests represented in Congress. Members of Congress from both parties and in all parts of the country have protected and redirected federal funds to their states. Senator Ted Stevens, a Republican from Alaska, and Senator Robert Byrd, a Democrat from West Virginia, famously used their powerful positions to funnel federal dollars to their constituents back home.

Voters in net beneficiary states have the luxury of voting for presidential candidates who pledge to cut taxes and halt the expansion of government while knowing that their congressional delegations will continue to protect federal spending.
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Old 01-14-2013, 01:44 PM #101
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When comparing federal dollars spent in a state versus dollars collected from citizend for federal income tax in a state population, population density, and area (of the state) DO matter.



PS - what was adjusted?
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:04 PM #102
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Originally Posted by scienceguy View Post
Interesting op Ed piece on this topic


http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...ed-states.html


Quote from article:
But the counties that received the highest per-capita spending in the category “other direct payments” voted for George W. Bush. “Other direct payments” includes Medicaid, food stamps, crop subsidies, housing assistance and many other programs that people generally think of as “welfare.”

Yadda yadda yadda

All of this is made possible by the Constitution. The separation of powers between the president and Congress also separates national interests represented by the president from local interests represented in Congress. Members of Congress from both parties and in all parts of the country have protected and redirected federal funds to their states. Senator Ted Stevens, a Republican from Alaska, and Senator Robert Byrd, a Democrat from West Virginia, famously used their powerful positions to funnel federal dollars to their constituents back home.

Voters in net beneficiary states have the luxury of voting for presidential candidates who pledge to cut taxes and halt the expansion of government while knowing that their congressional delegations will continue to protect federal spending.
Not so much of a paradox considering that according to thier accounting method they are able to count all the farming communities in the mid west who recieved federal farm because of the drought wiped out their crops in the same group as people who are baby factories to collect SS and welfair.

If you have a farming community, and a drought hits, it only stands to reason that a majority of the people in that community will recieve crop aid because they are all farmers or a farm based economy. Its not like they can control the weather or build a factory that is immune to drought thus keeping them from off of farm aid.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:07 PM #103
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Essentially it says that it you elect a moochy senator your state gets more money.

I buy that explanation. That's how I've always felt.
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Old 01-14-2013, 02:44 PM #104
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The problem with that graph is it's Federal dollars spent. That means its counting money spent on military bases, National forests and parks, the federal highway and interstate maint fund, as well as money spend on welfair, and medicaid.

Pretty much any state that has a lot of highways, governemnt owned land, and a low population is a sure win even if they have a low number of people on socialist programs (ie North Dakota, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana).
I don't see a problem with that. Thats exactly what a fiscal union would entail. Rich states are paying for the infrastructure of the poor rural states which allows them to experience similar living standards as the their richer urban peers.

Whats interesting politically is how much resentment these rural citizens often have towards cities.
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Old 01-14-2013, 03:29 PM #105
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I don't see a problem with that. Thats exactly what a fiscal union would entail. Rich states are paying for the infrastructure of the poor rural states which allows them to experience similar living standards as the their richer urban peers.

Whats interesting politically is how much resentment these rural citizens often have towards cities.
I can see how there would be resentment; you have people in NYC and other fully developed areas telling rural communities that they can not develope their communities and areas because the Federal Governmnet owns the land, or its a wetland area, or a red breasted sap sucker nesting ground, etc, etc...It is sort of hypocritical.


Secondly I would be carefull what you wish for... What would happen if those poorer rural states that make up the center of the US decided that they should be self sufficient through a road usage fee? It would pay for teh roads and make EVERYTHING not produced locally more expensive Nation wide. Or even worse what ifteh Federal Governmnet decided notto pay for infastrcuture? I'm and sure farmers in Iowa would have an easier time dealing with not getting new Nike's because there aren't any roads than the people in NYC dealing with no food because its stuck in Iowa.
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