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Old 01-10-2013, 04:37 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by X A N A T 0 S View Post
A majority of high end guns dont actually make full contact with the ball being shot, it's a majority airflow. Dwell is going to increase the amount of air being released per cycle, which would be why he is claiming it to help with chopping/breaking paint.
Incorrect since the Luxe bolt design releases a set amount of air per shot (seals off the dump chamber) unless the marker is under-dwelled and not allowing said dump chamber to fully vent.

Either way, I don't want people to think I'm saying that Luxes always break paint. I'm just saying that it would be nice to see a soft face option out there. I know that was one of the reasons I liked the NOX bolt (until it blew apart on you) because it had a simple bumper right on the bolt face. Which does make a difference.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:02 PM #23
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All paintball guns work the same. The bolt hits the ball, then air is released at the end of the bolts forward movement. So yes the bolts tip is very important in my book.

Soft tip.. Well that might help for cupped face bolts that have a farther distance to travel before hitting the ball compared to a flat face bolt that has very little travel to impact the ball. I don't think a pillow bolt (soft face) that is also flat faced will be any better on paint then a metal flat face bolt. The distance from the bolt to the ball is so small that I don't believe the positive effects are better then the negative ones. Soft faces will take more care and they do tent to blow out. I mean real soft face parts. Not that hard rubber like plastic that is more a gimmick and made only to satisfy the publics need for a soft face product short coming. I do think a cupped soft face is a step backward. That new flat face geo bolt that just came out is a far better design. Flat face and soft. But too soft and its not going to work. Too hard and its just a gimmick. I indeed made on my own very soft face ego bolts. They only work if the user takes care of there stuff. We found this out the hard way and will never make a "real" soft face bolt again. People just don't clean there parts and rip everything apart right when they get it and have no clue how it goes back together. So do I think a Luxe soft face bolt is the way to go, no. I don't think the luxe needs it. Proper settings, o-ring fitment and air pressures are fast fixed to most luxe owners chopping paint.
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:51 PM #24
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Wouldn't it also make it quieter? Just like st2 for geo 3, makes it quieter than hard bolt
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:52 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luxe4life
Wouldn't it also make it quieter? Just like st2 for geo 3, makes it quieter than hard bolt
I have both bolts and i disagree with you statement
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Old 01-10-2013, 05:54 PM #26
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I have both bolts and i disagree with you statement
It makes it quieter to me... And smoother.
And good for you should get your hearing checked
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:38 PM #27
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ive been shooting my Luxe since early 09 never have i had a chop, just stock 1.0 and 2.0 internals. even shooting GI 5star from cup in 30 degree weather. i only had barrel breaks, the Luxe is very gentile on paint.
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Old 01-11-2013, 02:28 PM #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luxe4life

It makes it quieter to me... And smoother.
And good for you should get your hearing checked
Its just preference. My non soff tip is also non broken in
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Old 01-11-2013, 04:09 PM #29
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All paintball guns work the same. The bolt hits the ball, then air is released at the end of the bolts forward movement. So yes the bolts tip is very important in my book.
Are you absolutely certain this is true? Isn't it possible that some markers are timed such that air begins to flow through the bolt just prior to it making contact with the ball? In other words, a small "cushion" of air could precede the bolt striking the ball, which would soften the impact. Sounds plausible, no? If it is true, would it change your opinion regarding bolt tips?
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Old 01-11-2013, 05:14 PM #30
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i'd agree with everyone else i never chop paint and if im having problems with paint braking in the cold its from barrel brakes
Barrel breaks are almost always a result of stack clipping. This is why they make rubber face bolts. Now.......rubber alone won't prevent stack clipping. Making sure the paint can't roll back into the bolt is the best prevention BUT........why not have both?

The luxe bolt tip at rest sits pretty close to orings though. I think a small insert to prevent rollback would be their best bet. A rubber tip would require a lot of redesign in my mind.

You can reduce it with settings changes as well but it's always nice to be able to run the brittle stuff without changing anything.
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Old 01-16-2013, 05:31 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMA View Post
Are you absolutely certain this is true? Isn't it possible that some markers are timed such that air begins to flow through the bolt just prior to it making contact with the ball? In other words, a small "cushion" of air could precede the bolt striking the ball, which would soften the impact. Sounds plausible, no? If it is true, would it change your opinion regarding bolt tips?
It's plausible, but it's not true of any common bolts on the market. It would require a lot of time and money to configure the bolt and bolt guide to work in that way.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:22 AM #32
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I just bought one and its pretty cold where I live here in Canada and i shot paint i couldnt drop two feet without breaking it no feather touch i found out and didnt break one ball. i broke some emptying my hopper into a pod and not when i shot it. thats nice.
bad grammer.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:09 AM #33
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Barrel breaks are almost always a result of stack clipping. This is why they make rubber face bolts.
I haven't seen problems with stack clipping on the Luxe. I have seen barrel break issues due to bad SFT orings. When that oring wears out, it sends a blast of air up the feedneck and can break balls in the stack. I've seen similar problems on many spool valve guns (though on most guns it's on the front of the bolt rather than the front of the breach). A lot of people don't pay attention to that oring. In fact, I recently saw a Luxe where the owner didn't know there was supposed to be an oring there and was blowing up tons of paint!
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:18 AM #34
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There are 6 soft face luxe bolts floating around the market.

look around the B/S/T
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:54 AM #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMA View Post
Are you absolutely certain this is true? Isn't it possible that some markers are timed such that air begins to flow through the bolt just prior to it making contact with the ball? In other words, a small "cushion" of air could precede the bolt striking the ball, which would soften the impact. Sounds plausible, no? If it is true, would it change your opinion regarding bolt tips?
The idea of a cocker is along these lines, since when cycling the bolt is actually moving away from the ball
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:13 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FrmrSpecialist View Post
I dont get some of your logic. Upping your dwell on a luxe wont increase velocity (unless you were under-dwelling for some odd reason). All that will do is help with bolt stick. And i have seen Ultra Evil that couldnt be shot out of a luxe (with pooty updrades) but shot fine out of G6Rs

I have noticed that Luxe owners tend to buy their own bull**** more than other marker owners... only people worse I think are PE owners.

The Luxe certainly is a nice marker, but there is plenty of room for improvement. I agree with the soft face.


I am not one to argue but your statement is false 100%

Upping your dwell and lowering your pressure will 100% gain in fps as the bolt will dump a larger volume of air.Yes the g6r is a great gun and very gentle for a pop it on paint but so is a vic.

We are not talking about which is better.But for cold weather any marker will do better at a higher dwell to a point with a lower pressure as the air to ball impact will be reduced thus making it easier on paint.

Maybe I do not know what I am talking about at all? Maybe Bob Long himself who will tell you this same thing is a idiot,or his son Zack or any of the techs at blast.

So because it was posted in the dlx forum it is just the silly bs that we all claim so we can sleep easier knowing we spent a bunch of cash on our marker when we should have bought a g6r.We know,we know.

Thanks you for making a fool of yourself though,being we have no knowledge of anything we should be doing back flips that you came in to give us a lesson.

Happy New year Shrek.
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Old 01-17-2013, 12:33 PM #37
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I haven't seen problems with stack clipping on the Luxe. I have seen barrel break issues due to bad SFT orings. When that oring wears out, it sends a blast of air up the feedneck and can break balls in the stack. I've seen similar problems on many spool valve guns (though on most guns it's on the front of the bolt rather than the front of the breach). A lot of people don't pay attention to that oring. In fact, I recently saw a Luxe where the owner didn't know there was supposed to be an oring there and was blowing up tons of paint!
I haven't had any issues with clipping either when using my luxe, but I don't think that has anything to do with the marker's design. The breach can fit balls larger than .689 yet the paint is much smaller than it used to be (especially at tournaments). That means second ball in the stack will sit down into the breach somewhat and be contacted by the bolt when it cycles. Not sure how you can easily design around that, although "ramped" bolts may lower the impact and chances of breakage. As you mentioned, it's possible a bad SFT oring allowing air to be forced up into the feedneck could also cause similar issues.

Sometimes the 2nd ball in the stack's shell can be compromised when struck by the bolt, particularly in cold weather. If your marker is relatively gently on paint during the firing cycle, fractured balls can make it into and down the barrel before rupturing completely resulting in "barrel breaks". Also, a loader that puts a lot of force on the stack will significantly increase the chances of this happening.
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Old 01-17-2013, 11:30 PM #38
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Originally Posted by KMA View Post
I haven't had any issues with clipping either when using my luxe, but I don't think that has anything to do with the marker's design. The breach can fit balls larger than .689 yet the paint is much smaller than it used to be (especially at tournaments). That means second ball in the stack will sit down into the breach somewhat and be contacted by the bolt when it cycles. Not sure how you can easily design around that, although "ramped" bolts may lower the impact and chances of breakage. As you mentioned, it's possible a bad SFT oring allowing air to be forced up into the feedneck could also cause similar issues.

Sometimes the 2nd ball in the stack's shell can be compromised when struck by the bolt, particularly in cold weather. If your marker is relatively gently on paint during the firing cycle, fractured balls can make it into and down the barrel before rupturing completely resulting in "barrel breaks". Also, a loader that puts a lot of force on the stack will significantly increase the chances of this happening.
Exactly. Most spoolers are gentle on paint by their very nature but in certain conditions(cold/brittle paint) any gun can have problems.

My rules for the cold/brittle paint, using any gun:

Reduce hopper stack tension. Brittle paint breaks easier. If the paint in the stack can't rebound upward a tad.......then it takes the force of the bolt full on. This leads to more broken paint. Slowing down your hoppers feed rate can also help to a degree, if you don't have the ability to adjust your stack tension. Just give yourself a good margin for error between the guns ROF and the hoppers feed rate.

Run a larger bore barrel. Any balls that do get clipped in the stack will be more likely to burst using a tighter bore. This isn't a huge factor but every bit helps. Remember metal shrinks in the cold The bore that worked on a warm day may not work as well on a cold one. Paint needs to expand a bit when fired, so give it room.

Increase dwell time. Efficiency doesn't mean squat if you're making soup, or can't hit anything because of a dirty barrel. If you raise your dwell you can lower your chamber pressure and put a little less stress on the ball. This can also reduce your bolt speed which helps prevent stack clipping.

Keep it warm. Winter paint normally only has a non-freezing fill. The shell is usually the same old shell, and will still get brittle in the cold. Try to keep your paint warm as long as possible. Ideally in a heated car, or even a cooler bag with some type of warming device. Cycle unused cold paint back to the warm zone after every game. A few degrees makes a big difference.

Raise your eye delay. Running your hopper dry here and there isn't a big deal when the paint is nice and flexible. The warm flexible shell can deal with minor impacts caused by irregular feeding. In the cold you don't have this option. A higher eye delay will make sure those random gaps in your ball stack wont' result in a clipped ball. It only takes one broken ball to screw up your game. Why take the chance? The effect on your ROF is going to be minimal and besides........shooting slower without breaks is far more valuable than shooting fast and making soup.

Paint quality. Use a cheaper paint that's meant to take more abuse. In the summer you may not want to touch brand X because it bounces too much. In the cold, this paint is exactly what you need. It's more durable BUT the cold temperatures will probably ensure that it still breaks on target without issues. Just not in your gun.

ROF. Generally speaking.....the faster you shoot the more paint you'll probably break on a good day. In the cold the probability increases. Cap your ROF at a level lower than what you're used to. Spray painting at 15bps only helps the other team. Shooting consistent accurate ropes at 10bps wins games.

Paint Size. Larger paintballs will generally have less stack clipping issues because they don't roll back into the bolt as much, and because the next ball in the stack doesn't usually hang down into the breech as far. If you can use a larger ball size, do it. Unfortunately most brands are small these days.

I posted this from another forum so just adapt it as you see fit. I'm a bit of a stickler for ball breaks.....I refuse to accept them. NONE lol. That's why I am a fan of soft face bolts BUT.....there is no reason you can't get your current rig to fire very very well in bad situations. There may be some small sacrifices but I personally feel the sacrifices are worth it to even prevent that one barrel break that loses you that important elimination during an important game.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:01 PM #39
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Originally Posted by MstrKey View Post
Exactly. Most spoolers are gentle on paint by their very nature but in certain conditions(cold/brittle paint) any gun can have problems.

My rules for the cold/brittle paint, using any gun:

Reduce hopper stack tension. Brittle paint breaks easier. If the paint in the stack can't rebound upward a tad.......then it takes the force of the bolt full on. This leads to more broken paint. Slowing down your hoppers feed rate can also help to a degree, if you don't have the ability to adjust your stack tension. Just give yourself a good margin for error between the guns ROF and the hoppers feed rate.

Run a larger bore barrel. Any balls that do get clipped in the stack will be more likely to burst using a tighter bore. This isn't a huge factor but every bit helps. Remember metal shrinks in the cold The bore that worked on a warm day may not work as well on a cold one. Paint needs to expand a bit when fired, so give it room.

Increase dwell time. Efficiency doesn't mean squat if you're making soup, or can't hit anything because of a dirty barrel. If you raise your dwell you can lower your chamber pressure and put a little less stress on the ball. This can also reduce your bolt speed which helps prevent stack clipping.

Keep it warm. Winter paint normally only has a non-freezing fill. The shell is usually the same old shell, and will still get brittle in the cold. Try to keep your paint warm as long as possible. Ideally in a heated car, or even a cooler bag with some type of warming device. Cycle unused cold paint back to the warm zone after every game. A few degrees makes a big difference.

Raise your eye delay. Running your hopper dry here and there isn't a big deal when the paint is nice and flexible. The warm flexible shell can deal with minor impacts caused by irregular feeding. In the cold you don't have this option. A higher eye delay will make sure those random gaps in your ball stack wont' result in a clipped ball. It only takes one broken ball to screw up your game. Why take the chance? The effect on your ROF is going to be minimal and besides........shooting slower without breaks is far more valuable than shooting fast and making soup.

Paint quality. Use a cheaper paint that's meant to take more abuse. In the summer you may not want to touch brand X because it bounces too much. In the cold, this paint is exactly what you need. It's more durable BUT the cold temperatures will probably ensure that it still breaks on target without issues. Just not in your gun.

ROF. Generally speaking.....the faster you shoot the more paint you'll probably break on a good day. In the cold the probability increases. Cap your ROF at a level lower than what you're used to. Spray painting at 15bps only helps the other team. Shooting consistent accurate ropes at 10bps wins games.

Paint Size. Larger paintballs will generally have less stack clipping issues because they don't roll back into the bolt as much, and because the next ball in the stack doesn't usually hang down into the breech as far. If you can use a larger ball size, do it. Unfortunately most brands are small these days.

I posted this from another forum so just adapt it as you see fit. I'm a bit of a stickler for ball breaks.....I refuse to accept them. NONE lol. That's why I am a fan of soft face bolts BUT.....there is no reason you can't get your current rig to fire very very well in bad situations. There may be some small sacrifices but I personally feel the sacrifices are worth it to even prevent that one barrel break that loses you that important elimination during an important game.
Over the years, I've seen a lot of people disagree with some of these suggestions... but they were wrong. MstrKey's recommendations are spot on and absolutely correct.

The key points are using a hopper that does not put anymore pressure on the ball stack than needed to match the RoF. Chrono a bit lower, and set up your particular gun to be as gentle as it can be on paint (e.g. increase dwell, lower LPR pressure on poppets, etc). Over bore so cracked paint has a better chance of getting out of the breach and as far down the barrel as possible and can be shot through. Don't use fragile paint and keep it warm (a few extra bounces is much better than paint oozing out of your eye covers).

On a side note: I remember debating the under vs over bore topic with some of the subject matter "experts" years ago, but they never lived in an area that got down to freezing temperatures and had no experience or understanding of the cold weather effects on paint. They pointed to controlled testing, etc to back their arguments, but since they did not test in conditions many northerly located players live in I didn't feel it was complete or totally accurate. In other words, you can't claim under boring was always, without a doubt, the best approach to barrel selection and not consider what happens to many players half of the year... A slight under bore may be best for shot consistency and efficiency for warm weather play, but it would completely ruin you day in some of the conditions I've played in over the years.
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:08 AM #40
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Originally Posted by ATLballaz View Post
I am not one to argue but your statement is false 100%

Upping your dwell and lowering your pressure will 100% gain in fps as the bolt will dump a larger volume of air.

How can upping the dwell increase the amount of air used per shot in a spool valve when the air path for the dump chamber is sealed during the firing cycle. The luxe copies the evolve shocker bolt by moving the dump chamber air inleg to the rear of the dump can. By doing so they were able to have the bolt seal the dump chamber air inlet during the forward stroke of the bolt

So what this means is that the dump chamber will ONLY allow a set and unchanging amount of air per shot. UNLESS you ran the dwell so low that you did not allow the dump chamber to fully equalize.... aka underdwelling. Like I said previously


Maybe I do not know what I am talking about at all? Maybe Bob Long himself who will tell you this same thing is a idiot,or his son Zack or any of the techs at blast.

Not sure what your point here is? I hope you are not comparing the bolt operation of a stacked tube poppet or inline poppet to that of spool valve because if that is a case you would realize you failed to actually read my previous statement

So because it was posted in the dlx forum it is just the silly bs that we all claim so we can sleep easier knowing we spent a bunch of cash on our marker when we should have bought a g6r.We know,we know.

I think you mistake me for a bob long fan... I am not. I am a fan of what ever company stands behind their product and legitimately shoots well

Thanks you for making a fool of yourself though,being we have no knowledge of anything we should be doing back flips that you came in to give us a lesson.

Happy New year Shrek.
I'll tell you what, use a little technical knowledge when you try to argue... not just make incomplete claims. Understand, i am not trying to be combative. Just trust that I know a hell a lot more about marker design than you think I do.
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Old 01-19-2013, 08:37 AM #41
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There are 6 soft face luxe bolts floating around the market.

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...wut?
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