[barrel roll]

Originally Posted by licence2kill

Yep. And taxes on households earning over 400.000 went up because the bush tax cuts expired.

Can't call them that anymore. Obama signed a bill into law with them on it. The Obama tax cuts expired.

[licence2kill]

Yes you're right.

[barrel roll]

Well, tax increase killed my raise, and then some.

[stupidmandan]

This blows. ~35% of my gross income will be gone to taxes.

[drgonzo]

You and everyone else in or around the middle class. Take solace that the economy would be very different if it wasn't, so you wouldn't necessarily be able to afford more.

[sucka T.]

Originally Posted by stupidmandan

This blows. ~35% of my gross income will be gone to taxes.

so you make 6 figures?

I honestly feel like nobody understands how taxes work anymore. (nobody is a bit harsh, alot of people dont understand).

TI=taxable income
Example for 2013:
Your first 9k of TI is taxed at 10%
Your next 27k of TI is taxed at 15%
Your next 50k of TI is taxed at 25%
Your next 95k of TI is taxed at 28%

This is taxing your TAXABLE Income. Your TAXABLE income is NOT your gross income. Your taxable income at most is your gross wages minus (the greater of) ~6k standard deduction or itemized deduction and minus ~3800*X (where X is 1+amount of claimable dependents, so your first at least ~10k of gross income is never taxable ever.

Add in ~7% for SS and medicare (up to around 6k max? not sure about this) (but you get value from that later in life, so its not like you are losing 100% of that money), and whatever small local tax you pay.

Plus there are several other deductions and credits you probably qualify for that lower your taxable income even farther. SO unless you are making a very high salary (and single with no kids), you are most likely not paying 35% of your paycheck.

And if you are paying 35% of your paycheck a year, then consider yourself extremely lucky that you are making so much money compared to the rest of the world. Congrats, you won the ****ing lottery, you live in the United States of America, and you are in the top 1% of income earners in the world.

(And I am not saying there is no need to ***** about taxes, nor am I saying taxes are too low or high, just have some perspective)

[barrel roll]

You think taxation only applies to income, and only from the general government?


PS - in relation to Social Security being a value 'later in life'. That is horse ****. There is no guarantee you're going to get to the point where you receive SO it isn't a 'value' until you qualify to receive it. Prior to that, it is a loss.

[benji25]

Originally Posted by barrel roll

You think taxation only applies to income, and only from the general government?

I think you mean federal.

[sucka T.]

Originally Posted by barrel roll

You think taxation only applies to income, and only from the general government?

What other tax is there? There is federal taxes and state and local taxes.

Sales tax, property taxes, etc reduce your federal tax liability per itemized deductions.

Correct me if im wrong here Benji25

Originally Posted by barrel roll

PS - in relation to Social Security being a value 'later in life'. That is horse ****. There is no guarantee you're going to get to the point where you receive SO it isn't a 'value' until you qualify to receive it. Prior to that, it is a loss.

So what are you going to nit pick at my post because of one small sentence?
When people who pay into social security don't get paid social security later in life let me know. As long as you pay into SS for 10 years you get benefits when you reach certain age. That isnt a loss at 100%. You get value from it later in life. You also get value right now knowing you are helping old people retire with the ability to live and buy food. Why are you nitpicking here? Ill gladly pay SS even knowing i wont get benefits in the future knowing im helping someone. That is value, to me, and i would never consider that a loss.

[barrel roll]

Originally Posted by sucka T.

What other tax is there? There is federal taxes and state and local taxes.

Sales tax, property taxes, etc reduce your federal tax liability per itemized deductions.



So what are you going to nit pick at my post because of one small sentence?
When people who pay into social security don't get paid social security later in life let me know. As long as you pay into SS for 10 years you get benefits when you reach certain age. That isnt a loss at 100%. You get value from it later in life. You also get value right now knowing you are helping old people retire with the ability to live and buy food. Why are you nitpicking here? Ill gladly pay SS even knowing i wont get benefits in the future knowing im helping someone. That is value, to me, and i would never consider that a loss.

Nit pick? I gave you a post script.
I get no value helping old people retire, live, and buy food. That isn't even how the program was sold to the people.
There is NO assurance you will reach the requirement to qualify to receive it, therefore until you receive it you are losing money.

Taxes paid elsewhere might lower the amount taxable by the general government, but the other taxes you pay come from your income per annum as well.

Say the general government taxes me 25% for my income, my state taxes me 7% for my income. Where does that place me? Then take property taxes, vehicle taxes and sales tax, all of which are not based on a percentage of income.

Your comments make your argument sound like you are only getting taxed X% and only by the general government.

Originally Posted by benji25

I think you mean federal.

No, I mean general. I read books, I'm bringing terms back.

[sucka T.]

Originally Posted by barrel roll

Taxes paid might lower the amount taxable by the general government, but the other taxes you pay come from your income per annum.

Say the general government taxes me 25% for my income, my state taxes me 7% for my income. Where does that place me? Then take property taxes, vehicle taxes and sales tax, all of which are not based on a percentage of income.

Your comments make your argument sound like you are only getting taxed X% and only by the general government.

The way you are arguing you are making it seem like

Gross pay-25%-7%=net income. And then after that you are paying vehicle tax, sales tax property tax with after tax dollars. That is not how it works. You have Gross pay-taxes paid (sales tax/vehicle tax/property tax), and THEN taxes on income. Those are 2 different numbers. You are paying those taxes (sales tax/vehicle tax/property tax) with gross income dollars, not after tax net income dollars. Its completely different.

Ok, yes you are right those taxes come out of your income. (Sales tax, property etc), but in essence you arent paying 100% of face value since it reduces federal tax liability. I see what you are saying and agree, and I see the error of my previous post, but I dont think you are looking at it the right way in reference to order of taxes paid, and cost of those taxes.

All that being said, there isnt anyway that guy is paying 35% of his income to taxes (which is the only reason I am posting in this thread), unless he is making an extremely high salary, in which case I dont feel bad for him (and neither should anyone else).

Again I state, I am not arguing that taxes are too low or too high. Of course I would like to keep 100% of my income, but I wont complain about being taxed. My argument is, if you are going to ***** about taxes, at least understand how you are being taxed first.

Originally Posted by barrel roll

I get no value helping old people retire, live, and buy food.

That is sad.

[barrel roll]

Originally Posted by sucka T.

Yay, another person who does not understand taxes, who wants to argue taxes.

The way you are arguing you are making it seem like

Gross pay-25%-7%=net income. And then after that you are paying vehicle tax, sales tax property tax with after tax dollars. That is not how it works buddy. You have Gross pay-taxes paid (sales tax/vehicle tax/property tax), and THEN taxes. Those are 2 different numbers. You are paying those taxes (sales tax/vehicle tax/property tax) with gross income dollars, not after tax net income dollars. Its completely different.



That is sad.

They receive the value, not I.

Being taxed is being taxed. In my statement "Taxes paid might lower the amount taxable by the general government, but the other taxes you pay come from your income per annum." it should have been clear that taxed paid lower the amount taxable by the general government.

Lets play math.

55,000 a year income.
*.062 (SS 2013) .042 (Medicare)
-----------------------------------------
3410
+2310
-55000
-----------------------------------------
49280 or 10.4% taxed so far

GA Ad Velorem tax of $220 for a vehicle purchased last year at $18,000

49060 taxable now

GA income tax (because it is weird) five percent of the first $7,000 of net taxable income (total tax on the first $7,000 of net taxable income is $230) plus six percent of the excess of net taxable income over $7,000. $2300 standard deduction for a single filer.

(now it gets tricky)

Sooo... 39760 (taxable for state) * .07 (because the 230 doesn't count yet) =
2783 (rounding) + 230 = 3013 is what you owe to the state

49060
-3013
------
46047(rounding) or 16.2% taxed so far


For ****s and giggles you are going to use the standard deduction, $5950. You're a renter, for this example.

46047
-5950
------
40097
(Using this)

10% of 8925
+
15% of 27325
+
25% of 3847
---------
totals out in 5953 owed to the general government

40097
-5953
------
34144 or 37.92% of your income went to taxes.

PS - I am using 2013 rates for the example, I understand 2012 SS rate is lower.

[Space Pope]

I got a $300 per paycheck raise this year, and $148 of it is going to taxes. Neat.

[sucka T.]

Originally Posted by barrel roll

They receive the value, not I.

Being taxed is being taxed. In my statement "Taxes paid might lower the amount taxable by the general government, but the other taxes you pay come from your income per annum." it should have been clear that taxed paid lower the amount taxable by the general government.

Lets play math.

55,000 a year income.
*.062 (SS 2013) .042 (Medicare)
-----------------------------------------
3410
+2310
-55000
-----------------------------------------
49280 or 10.4% taxed so far

GA Ad Velorem tax of $220 for a vehicle purchased last year at $18,000

49060 taxable now

GA income tax (because it is weird) five percent of the first $7,000 of net taxable income (total tax on the first $7,000 of net taxable income is $230) plus six percent of the excess of net taxable income over $7,000. $2300 standard deduction for a single filer.

(now it gets tricky)

Sooo... 39760 (taxable for state) * .07 (because the 230 doesn't count yet) =
2783 (rounding) + 230 = 3013 is what you owe to the state

49060
-3013
------
46047(rounding) or 16.2% taxed so far


For ****s and giggles you are going to use the standard deduction, $5950. You're a renter, for this example.

46047
-5950
------
40097
(Using this)

10% of 8925
+
15% of 27325
+
25% of 3847
---------
totals out in 5953 owed to the general government

40097
-5953
------
34144 or 37.92% of your income went to taxes.

PS - I am using 2013 rates for the example, I understand 2012 SS rate is lower.

Redo the math, this time use the right medicare % (1.4% not 4.6%).
And subtract 3900 from taxable income due to personal exemption.
The 2013 standard deduction is 6100

Maybe it is closer to 35% than I thought it would be and I jumped the gun on the brow beating. Wouldnt be the first time.

[chodeyg]

Originally Posted by stupidmandan

This blows. ~35% of my gross income will be gone to taxes.

Only in America could a guy make this much cash and only mention his taxes.

[benji25]

Originally Posted by chodeyg

Only in America could a guy make this much cash and only mention his taxes.

Just because people have more money does not mean they should pay more in taxes (a higher percent I mean).

[TheSilentAssassin]

Originally Posted by benji25

Just because people have more money does not mean they should pay more in taxes (a higher percent I mean).

Progressive taxes are necessary due to the nature of capitalism to create vast income inequality which crumbles economies and societies alike. Without progressive taxation, our economy would inevitably fail.

[Murph1329]

Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin

Progressive taxes are necessary due to the nature of capitalism to create vast income inequality which crumbles economies and societies alike. Without progressive taxation, our economy would inevitably fail.

and the reverse of that is true as well
when you have 47% not paying any federal income tax you have a problem

[drgonzo]

Originally Posted by sucka T.

so you make 6 figures?

I honestly feel like nobody understands how taxes work anymore. (nobody is a bit harsh, alot of people dont understand).

TI=taxable income
Example for 2013:
Your first 9k of TI is taxed at 10%
Your next 27k of TI is taxed at 15%
Your next 50k of TI is taxed at 25%
Your next 95k of TI is taxed at 28%

This is taxing your TAXABLE Income. Your TAXABLE income is NOT your gross income. Your taxable income at most is your gross wages minus (the greater of) ~6k standard deduction or itemized deduction and minus ~3800*X (where X is 1+amount of claimable dependents, so your first at least ~10k of gross income is never taxable ever.

Add in ~7% for SS and medicare (up to around 6k max? not sure about this) (but you get value from that later in life, so its not like you are losing 100% of that money), and whatever small local tax you pay.

Plus there are several other deductions and credits you probably qualify for that lower your taxable income even farther. SO unless you are making a very high salary (and single with no kids), you are most likely not paying 35% of your paycheck.

And if you are paying 35% of your paycheck a year, then consider yourself extremely lucky that you are making so much money compared to the rest of the world. Congrats, you won the ****ing lottery, you live in the United States of America, and you are in the top 1% of income earners in the world.

(And I am not saying there is no need to ***** about taxes, nor am I saying taxes are too low or high, just have some perspective)

This is actually a good point that everyone in this forum would do well to understand. This is the effective total federal tax rate by income quintile, and note that typically corporate and excise taxes are not withheld from paychecks:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=456

This is effective state tax rate:

http://taxfoundation.org/article/sta...year-1977-2010

So even taking the worst-case scenario of area code 212 (new york) the original poster would not hit 35% total income-based tax burden until he reached the top 5% of earners.

It is possible that he has his exemptions misconfigured and is getting more withholding than necessary, but that would result in a refund at tax time, which many people ignore when they complain about their paycheck withholdings.

Originally Posted by Murph1329

and the reverse of that is true as well
when you have 47% not paying any federal income tax you have a problem

You are surprisingly correct here, but not in the way you think. The problem is too many people aren't making enough income.

Originally Posted by Space Pope

I got a $300 per paycheck raise this year, and $148 of it is going to taxes. Neat.

Which is about $6 more than would have went to taxes last year. $0 than three years ago. Big whoop.

[chodeyg]

Originally Posted by benji25

Just because people have more money does not mean they should pay more in taxes (a higher percent I mean).

Disagree completely. A person who earns a lot of money and is taxed at a higher rate has a quality of life that is less affected (by taxes) than a person with a lower income with a lower tax rate.

The wealthy man can afford less inches on his boat, while the poorer person struggles to afford rent and expenses. Unless the poor are really doing fine and its all overblown?

Progressive taxation is synonymous with taxation. Stop bringing up ridiculous talking points that even the most palinesque representative doesn't support.

Originally Posted by Murph1329

and the reverse of that is true as well
when you have 47% not paying any federal income tax you have a problem

Do you have any evidence that the poor not paying enough taxes is affecting our economy and way of life? Or are you just spouting idealogue nonsense? What problem are you referring to?

[benji25]

Originally Posted by chodeyg

Disagree completely. A person who earns a lot of money and is taxed at a higher rate has a quality of life that is less affected (by taxes) than a person with a lower income with a lower tax rate.

The wealthy man can afford less inches on his boat, while the poorer person struggles to afford rent and expenses. Unless the poor are really doing fine and its all overblown?

Progressive taxation is synonymous with taxation. Stop bringing up ridiculous talking points that even the most palinesque representative doesn't support.

If the goal of taxes is to redistribute wealth then you are correct.

If the goal of taxes is to pay for government expense on programs then no you are not correct.

In my mind taxes are (or should be) designed to meet expenses, not redistribute wealth. Now some programs may benefit the poor and that is OK but to tax someone more just because they have money is purely redistribution of wealth.