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Old 01-22-2013, 02:27 PM #1366
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So let's step away from animals and move to people. Even without the Constitution, do I have the right to defend myself? What if a cannibal wants to eat me?
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:32 PM #1367
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Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
So let's step away from animals and move to people. Even without the Constitution, do I have the right to defend myself? What if a cannibal wants to eat me?
You have the ability to choose and try to defend yourself.

The constitution merely grants you the ability to defend yourself without the government stopping you from doing so.

Do you get this now?
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:37 PM #1368
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
You have the ability to choose and try to defend yourself.

The constitution merely grants you the ability to defend yourself without the government stopping you from doing so.

Do you get this now?
OK, I see your distinction now... although I don't necessarily agree with the distinction you're making. So, do you disagree with the founding forefathers... and that we do not have rights bestowed to us by our creator (naural rights.)
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:41 PM #1369
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While I would love to hear Iamamartianchurch's response, the right to bear arms is unquestionably not a natural right.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:42 PM #1370
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Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
OK, I see your distinction now... although I don't necessarily agree with the distinction you're making. So, do you disagree with the founding forefathers... and that we do not have rights bestowed to us by our creator (naural rights.)
I see no evidence for the existence of these rights outside of that which we are able to grant to ourselves. Certainly, if they were natural, they would be the default of all civilization. They are not.
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:48 PM #1371
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While I would love to hear Iamamartianchurch's response, the right to bear arms is unquestionably not a natural right.
I'm pretty sure it's a natural right when our ancestors from thousands of years ago knew that creating weapons and tools were the key to survival. Even cavemen used weapons. How would they know to do this if it wasn't natural?
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:51 PM #1372
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
I see no evidence for the existence of these rights outside of that which we are able to grant to ourselves. Certainly, if they were natural, they would be the default of all civilization. They are not.
Even more elementary is the question of ascertainment: how can we accurately determine the nature/scope/application of such objective rights?
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Old 01-22-2013, 02:54 PM #1373
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Felon disenfranchisement is an interesting topic and I don't mind discussing it. The way I see it, if someone has been charged with a felony and sent to prison, they have paid their debt once released from prison. To further restrict them post-incarceration, to me, appears as a way to keep particular groups from participating in society and encourages recidivism. There exists a long history of proponents of felon disenfranchisement doing so out of racial motivation. It is a strong method for disarming minorities, keeping them from voting, and ensuring an impoverished minority population exists by blocking many of their employment opportunities. So no, I don't believe felons should be barred from their Constitutional rights once they have finished paying their debt to society.

However I also think people like serial rapists, mass murderers, and etc should be put to death as soon as possible. There are many people who get released back into society who are likely to commit more crime regardless of the punishments promised or previously endured. Those are people who should never be allowed back into society. So long as there exists such a wide range of severity for what constitutes a felon, it's difficult to blanket some as being equal to others. A marijuana dealer is nowhere near the danger to others as a mass murderer or rapist is.
I may not agree with everything you say on here, but I certainly can't accuse you of being inconsistent
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:04 PM #1374
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Even more elementary is the question of ascertainment: how can we accurately determine the nature/scope/application of such objective rights?
That is a most excellent question. I would love to see it answered by natural rights advocates.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:07 PM #1375
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Wow.

I just realized that most of the people here arguing for completely unfettered access to firearms on the basis of the 'right to bear arms' don't actually understand what a right is.

While I'm curious if anyone can legitimately refute that some amount of regulation easily falls under the "well regulated militia" language, I'll probably be spending a considerably less amount of time in this sub. Partially because of that and partially because my life is about to become very busy.

Peace be with you all.
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:09 PM #1376
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Wow.

I just realized that most of the people here arguing for completely unfettered access to firearms on the basis of the 'right to bear arms' don't actually understand what a right is.

While I'm curious if anyone can legitimately refute that regulation easily falls under the "well regulated militia" language, I'll probably be spending a considerably less amount of time in this sub. Partially because of that and partially because my life is about to become very busy.

Peace be with you all.
here we are beating a dead horse again

the right of the people to keep and bare arms shall not be infringed

it kind of ends there
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:27 PM #1377
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Feinstein says she'll introduce it on Thursday

Hello high prices
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Old 01-22-2013, 03:53 PM #1378
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She's introduced it every year for what...10 years now?
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:08 PM #1379
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Feinstein says she'll introduce it on Thursday

Hello high prices
Have you not been paying attention to prices over the past 6 weeks or so? I had to pay something like $1.65/round on .308 almost a month ago, which was pretty f'n high. Finally found some more this past weekend and it was almost $2.00/round, and that was nothing special (Hornady Match 168 gr). AR-15's/related **** is getting out of control.

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She's introduced it every year for what...10 years now?
Not only that, but hasn't it slated to have been introduced a couple of times this year.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:12 PM #1380
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That is a most excellent question. I would love to see it answered by natural rights advocates.
I hate brushing up so closely to relativistic arguments, but natural rights theory tends to break down when you try to divorce it from religious texts. Formal logic can certainly be used to try and glean "natural" rights, but even that process gives rise to mutability as society changes.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:25 PM #1381
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Have you not been paying attention to prices over the past 6 weeks or so? I had to pay something like $1.65/round on .308 almost a month ago, which was pretty f'n high. Finally found some more this past weekend and it was almost $2.00/round, and that was nothing special (Hornady Match 168 gr). AR-15's/related **** is getting out of control.
Yes, I know. Prices are going to soar higher. Can't wait until my lowers get here.

I'm gonna make so much bank ...
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:36 PM #1382
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Saw a PTR 91 with 600rds of WWB .308, leuopold scope, harris bipod, some other ****, for 1800. Shoulda coulda woulda man.
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Old 01-22-2013, 04:54 PM #1383
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Obama signed his executive orders pertaining to gun violence, gun education, gun prevention and regulation, and violence studies today.

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2013/01/16/o...-gun-violence/

Hooray for adding even more to the national debt!
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Old 01-22-2013, 05:42 PM #1384
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Obama signed his executive orders pertaining to gun violence, gun education, gun prevention and regulation, and violence studies today.
Last Wednesday. We have been talking about this for a week now.
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Old 01-22-2013, 06:03 PM #1385
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Last Wednesday. We have been talking about this for a week now.
shows how much i pay attention to this thread lately lol i lurk a little bit, but thats it. carry on! haha
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Old 01-22-2013, 07:07 PM #1386
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It will be really interesting to see if prices drop back to pre-2011 prices after this conflict plays out.
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