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Old 01-22-2013, 11:15 AM #1324
TheSilentAssassin
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
I like MLK be cause he cheated on his wife with white hookers, then beat them with his buddy (also a reverend).
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Cheated on his doctorate too. Role model and hero.
I've heard these things, but then I heard they were a myth. Never looked into them very far. Anyone know how reputable they are?
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:35 AM #1325
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The doctorate plagiarism issue is extremely reputable.

The white hooker beating thing... only citing I can give is Ralph Abernathy's book. People often cite FBI surveillance recordings, but those are sealed.

Quote:
One of King's closest associates addressed rumors about King's sexual activities in his 1989 book, "And the Walls Came Tumbling Down."
He said that King did have a weakness for women and engaged in extramarital affairs.
He denied reports that he was attracted to white women and said he never knew of King to be involved with a white woman.
As a part of its surveillance activities, the FBI did document some sexual encounters involving Martin Luther King.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:41 AM #1326
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Originally Posted by Umami View Post
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Do explain how regulation is a violation of the 2nd amendment.
Regulation, in this case, means that one group of people get to decide if/how another group of people get to excercise their natural born right to bear arms. By any other name, this is infringement.

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It is perfect ****ing logic. I even told you what it was called. I can write it up in FOL if you like:
It's just a reductio ad absurdum. It's a very simple logical concept. Please don't talk about logic if you don't understand it.
You're argument is based on equating guns to nukes. You seem to indicate that since the Government is allowed to regulate nukes, that it should then be allowed to regulate guns. But as I said... guns are NOT nukes. The Government can regulate nukes because there is nothing that prevents it. There is, however, a little phrase in the 2nd Amendment that specifically prohibits the infringement of gun ownership/possession.

Once we allow the Government to "infringe" on our 2nd Amendment right, then its not a far leap for the Government to infringe on other rights.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:44 AM #1327
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Alright, the context is muskets. Shall we start there?
How is the context muskets? Nowhere in the wording of the 2nd Amendment will you see the word musket, or muzzle loader. It says "arms." The framers of the Constitution were not idiots. I have to believe they chose the word "arms" for a reason.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:48 AM #1328
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You're argument is based on equating guns to nukes. You seem to indicate that since the Government is allowed to regulate nukes, that it should then be allowed to regulate guns. But as I said... guns are NOT nukes. The Government can regulate nukes because there is nothing that prevents it. There is, however, a little phrase in the 2nd Amendment that specifically prohibits the infringement of gun ownership/possession.

Once we allow the Government to "infringe" on our 2nd Amendment right, then its not a far leap for the Government to infringe on other rights.
No where in his argument did he mention the second amendment. No where in his argument did he mention infringing upon rights. His point was exclusively the notion that because a gun is a tool it shouldn't be regulated. I showed the absurdity in that notion. I gave an informal proof method and wrote up a formal proof in FOL. I can not be any more clear than this. The notion that guns don't kill people, people do therefore don't regulate guns is flawed.

MY ARGUMENT IS EXCLUSIVELY IN REFERENCE TO HIS. STOP BRINGING IN IRRELEVANT PREMISES.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:53 AM #1329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
No where in his argument did he mention the second amendment. No where in his argument did he mention infringing upon rights. His point was exclusively the notion that because a gun is a tool it shouldn't be regulated. I showed the absurdity in that notion. I gave an informal proof method and wrote up a formal proof in FOL. I can not be any more clear than this. The notion that guns don't kill people, people do therefore don't regulate guns is flawed.

MY ARGUMENT IS EXCLUSIVELY IN REFERENCE TO HIS. STOP BRINGING IN IRRELEVANT PREMISES.
A shovel is a tool. Should we regulate shovels just because some guy kills someone with a shovel? Why did you choose nukes to make your example?
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:54 AM #1330
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I like MLK be cause he cheated on his wife with white hookers, then beat them with his buddy (also a reverend).
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Cheated on his doctorate too. Role model and hero.
.
.
.

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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Care to explain to me how hypocrisy on part of a public figure or individual at any level discredits a position?
?
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:56 AM #1331
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
.
.
.



?
What? I just said I liked him because he is relatable. I want to screw then beat white hookers too.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:57 AM #1332
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
.
.
.



?
I don't care for the man. The real hero is Malcolm X, both ideologically and pragmatically. If it wasn't for a perceived violent uprising, the government wouldn't have listened to MLK. They chose the path of least resistance as is so often in history.
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Old 01-22-2013, 11:59 AM #1333
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A shovel is a tool. Should we regulate shovels just because some guy kills someone with a shovel? Why did you choose nukes to make your example?
Because it's a ****ing reductio ad absurdum, you idiot. The point is that if the existential premises follow on normal cases and the conclusion follows than the point must follow on existential premises with extreme cases and have the conclusion still follow.

Plus, my point was that by his argument you could argue that nukes shouldn't be regulated, not that shovels could. His argument taken to it's logical conclusion would say that nukes shouldn't be regulated. That is, of course, absurd, so therefore there must be a problem with the premises.

I can't believe I am getting this much flack from such a simple logical construct.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:00 PM #1334
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I don't care for the man. The real hero is Malcolm X, both ideologically and pragmatically. If it wasn't for a perceived violent uprising, the government wouldn't have listened to MLK. They chose the path of least resistance as is so often in history.
Ya, I'm remembering this now. We have been down this path before.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:05 PM #1335
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Because it's a ****ing reductio ad absurdum, you idiot. The point is that if the existential premises follow on normal cases and the conclusion follows than the point must follow on existential premises with extreme cases and have the conclusion still follow.

Plus, my point was that by his argument you could argue that nukes shouldn't be regulated, not that shovels could. His argument taken to it's logical conclusion would say that nukes shouldn't be regulated. That is, of course, absurd, so therefore there must be a problem with the premises.

I can't believe I am getting this much flack from such a simple logical construct.
Because its not logical at all. The analogy is too extreme. A gun cannot level an entire city, then continue to kill people with radioactive fallout.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:12 PM #1336
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Because its not logical at all. The analogy is too extreme. A gun cannot level an entire city, then continue to kill people with radioactive fallout.
It's like you aren't even reading my posts. None of this is even in the least bit relevant. I am done.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:57 PM #1337
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Regulation, in this case, means that one group of people get to decide if/how another group of people get to excercise their natural born right to bear arms. By any other name, this is infringement.
There are no 'natural born rights' unless we as a society decide there are. The only things that kept you from being extinguished the moment you were born were biology and social contract.

And enough of this 'one group vs. another' bullcrap. That's how societies function, driven by general consensus. If you're an extreme outlier on nearly anything, society is going to regulate the **** out of you.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:05 PM #1338
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Originally Posted by Volucris View Post
I made bold the applicable portion of the quote which answers your very question.

For whatever reason, you and others have a strange difficulty in reading the text of most amendments. When you see:
"the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

you think: "Well it says arms, infringed, and people. Let's redefine arms as single shot muzzleloaders with RFID and DNA scanners which require authorization from the local police to fire. And that they only fire paintballs."
Odd. When I read your explanation, I see someone who is wholly incapable of READING COMPLETE SENTENCES.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Apparently when you read "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed", you get a hard-on and your brain promptly forgets the first half of the sentence. Cherry picking might be convenient to your argument, but it won't be persuasive.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:12 PM #1339
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Odd. When I read your explanation, I see someone who is wholly incapable of READING COMPLETE SENTENCES.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Apparently when you read "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed", you get a hard-on and your brain promptly forgets the first half of the sentence. Cherry picking might be convenient to your argument, but it won't be persuasive.
I will ask you again...

What do you think the ammendment means? That people can specifically own muskets? For what purpose?
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:12 PM #1340
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It doesn't matter, Lincoln killed free states when he fought for and won his indivisible nation.

Even though... there is no backing for that indivisible nation thing.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:19 PM #1341
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I will ask you again...

What do you think the ammendment means? That people can specifically own muskets? For what purpose?
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

When I read the second amendment, the following is how I interpret it:

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms for the purpose of a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, shall not be infringed."

To me, a well-regulated militia includes regulations on how arms are handled.

If you can provide an alternative interpretation that includes all clauses of the sentence and makes sense for a total lack of regulation, I'm all ears.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:36 PM #1342
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There are no 'natural born rights' unless we as a society decide there are.
We as an American society have ALREADY decided that we have natural born rights. Does the following sound familiar?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."When rights are endowed to us by our creator, then they are by definition "natural born rights."

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And enough of this 'one group vs. another' bullcrap. That's how societies function, driven by general consensus. If you're an extreme outlier on nearly anything, society is going to regulate the **** out of you.
Since when does excersizing my natural born right to keep and bear arms make me an extreme outlier?
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:41 PM #1343
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

When I read the second amendment, the following is how I interpret it:

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms for the purpose of a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, shall not be infringed."

To me, a well-regulated militia includes regulations on how arms are handled.

If you can provide an alternative interpretation that includes all clauses of the sentence and makes sense for a total lack of regulation, I'm all ears.

So where exactly are you getting the single shot musket thing?

You didn't answer my question. What do you think the purpose of the amendment is? Why was it written?

In the language of the times, a "well regulated militia" would be a trained, organized, group of armed men composed of the local population. It in no way refers to "regulation" in modern terms such as rules and whatnot in regards to what arms can and cannot be handled.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:42 PM #1344
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Originally Posted by PBOldTimer View Post
We as an American society have ALREADY decided that we have natural born rights. Does the following sound familiar?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights..."When rights are endowed to us by our creator, then they are by definition "natural born rights."
I can hear the wooshing sound of my point going over your head all the way over here.

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Since when does excersizing my natural born right to keep and bear arms make me an extreme outlier?
Reading comprehension. An extreme outlier on nearly anything does not include the right to keep and bear arms. I was speaking generally.
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