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Old 12-28-2012, 10:25 AM #337
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Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
No one cares about those poor people killed in groups of 3 or less.
Fixed it for you. Doesn't matter if they were white or black. Doesn't matter if they were simply killed individually, instead of in a group. Doesn't matter that most of the firearms used were aquired illegally.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:26 AM #338
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I personally hate everything about this "gun violence" debate: the language it's couched in, the fact that it's only discussed under certain circumstances, but mostly the fact that it's really not a discussion at all. Discussion implies at least a degree of earnestness.
But what do you expect, the two different sides of the gun debate are not compatible at their core. Most anti gun proponents do not believe guns should be part of our society: period. It's like an athiest debating a Christian, what's the point? All either side can do is try to gain the moral high ground and keep the other side from winning.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:30 AM #339
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But what do you expect, the two different sides of the gun debate are not compatible at their core.
But that's just it: are we calling for a debate on the utility of firearms or do we want to take an honest look at the violent tendencies nestled in our culture?
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:33 AM #340
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But that's just it: are we calling for a debate on the utility of firearms or do we want to take an honest look at the violent tendencies nestled in our culture?
I would like to do the latter, but everyone I encounter online or in person wants to do the former.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:35 AM #341
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But that's just it: are we calling for a debate on the utility of firearms or do we want to take an honest look at the violent tendencies nestled in our culture?
If people cared about the country, they would do the latter.

But they don't. More specifically, the policiticans don't. They care about getting re-elected. In order to do that, they have to pander to their base. Which means you can't inact legislation that will make them uncomfortable, even if it's better for them in the long run.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:41 AM #342
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If people cared about the country, they would do the latter.

But they don't. More specifically, the policiticans don't. They care about getting re-elected. In order to do that, they have to pander to their base. Which means you can't inact legislation that will make them uncomfortable, even if it's better for them in the long run.
But many people, myself included, don't believe this is a problem that can be fixed by legislation. People want to wave a wand and pass a law that will make it all better without having to get their hands dirty.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:47 AM #343
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Those many people, yourself included, are not loud or smart enough to combat the likes of the people that want to wave their magic wands.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:03 AM #344
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Those many people, yourself included, are not loud or smart enough to combat the likes of the people that want to wave their magic wands.
Believe me, I wish we could legislate this **** away. But we can't. Pass all the gun control you want, it's not going to stop the next mass shooting.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:17 AM #345
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But many people, myself included, don't believe this is a problem that can be fixed by legislation. People want to wave a wand and pass a law that will make it all better without having to get their hands dirty.
No, I'm not saying this at all.

It would require a very hard look at the state of the country and how much the people expect someone else to bail them out. How they expect the government to provide for them. How they expect the government to raise their children. How nothing is ever their fault and they're not responsible because they've been kept down. How the value of life has been so degraded that it takes 20 children being killed at once in order for us to have national attention, even though Chicago has had 391 public school children killed this year.

Basically, it would require everyone to be willing to accept the consequences of their own actions and then work in order to make those consequences better.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:35 AM #346
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No, I'm not saying this at all.

It would require a very hard look at the state of the country and how much the people expect someone else to bail them out. How they expect the government to provide for them. How they expect the government to raise their children. How nothing is ever their fault and they're not responsible because they've been kept down. How the value of life has been so degraded that it takes 20 children being killed at once in order for us to have national attention, even though Chicago has had 391 public school children killed this year.

Basically, it would require everyone to be willing to accept the consequences of their own actions and then work in order to make those consequences better.
Sorry I misunderstood. I agree that politicians should lead the discussion, but the solution will not be political in nature. We cannot legislate responsibility, or a respect for life. These things start with our community and the people who we look up to and emulate.

Also, what you are asking is for someone to commit political suicide. It will take someone with huge stones to say to the fat, slack jawed American masses that our current state of affairs is on them. But I'd vote for anyone who is up to the task.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:54 AM #347
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Sorry I misunderstood. I agree that politicians should lead the discussion, but the solution will not be political in nature. We cannot legislate responsibility, or a respect for life. These things start with our community and the people who we look up to and emulate.

Also, what you are asking is for someone to commit political suicide. It will take someone with huge stones to say to the fat, slack jawed American masses that our current state of affairs is on them. But I'd vote for anyone who is up to the task.
First step: Impose term limits on members of Congress and take away retirement. You don't need to worry about political suicide if you're not getting re-elected anyway.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:00 PM #348
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First step: Impose term limits on members of Congress and take away retirement. You don't need to worry about political suicide if you're not getting re-elected anyway.
I would not do that. The only pressure you and I can put on a congressman is to inform that we won't vote for them. If you take that away we have no power over them.

I would push for STRONG reforms of campaign finance and restrictions on corporate lobbying. I would give them retirement, but after 20 or so years of service. That way they must please their electorate rather than their campaign donors and super pacs to get back in office.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:10 PM #349
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Only in a society where the government wishes to impose its will on the people. In a free society, culture (the values if the people) should shape law.
Oh, freedom is bull****.

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I'm gonna have to side w/Iamamartianchurch on this one (to an extent, at least). I think the law is more a reflection of culture, which is largely the reason why a lot of our laws are reactionary/knee-jerk in nature. I personally hate everything about this "gun violence" debate: the language it's couched in, the fact that it's only discussed under certain circumstances, but mostly the fact that it's really not a discussion at all. Discussion implies at least a degree of earnestness.
I don't deny that culture affects law, but I believe law also effects culture. I think the quickest way to create a less violent culture is to remove those parts of our culture that reinforce a culture of violence. By that, I don't mean remove all the guns. I mean remove guns from mentally unstable people and make it much harder for people who shouldn't have guns from getting them. That way we have less murders in the short term which I believe will lead to a culture of less violence in the long term.

This is also but one piece of the puzzle.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:29 PM #350
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I'm gonna have to side w/Iamamartianchurch on this one (to an extent, at least). I think the law is more a reflection of culture, which is largely the reason why a lot of our laws are reactionary/knee-jerk in nature. I personally hate everything about this "gun violence" debate: the language it's couched in, the fact that it's only discussed under certain circumstances, but mostly the fact that it's really not a discussion at all. Discussion implies at least a degree of earnestness.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:40 PM #351
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I think the quickest way to create a less violent culture is to remove those parts of our culture that reinforce a culture of violence.
You're going to have a lot of wildly different and contradictory opinions as to what should be considered parts of our culture which "reinforces a culture of violence." So much so, in fact, that you run the risk of delving into absurdity by framing the discussion these terms without a primer for what the term means.

What's an objective and reasonable measure for determining whether an aspect of our society/culture on the whole reinforces our "culture of violence"?
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:43 PM #352
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I believe Arizona will have a state sponsored program to train at least 1 teacher from every school in the state to handle a firearm. Until that happens, a LEO will be stationed in each school.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:18 PM #353
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Oh look gonzo....AT4's on the streets of LA. Scurrrrry

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Old 12-28-2012, 01:26 PM #354
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I wonder what that yellow band means...
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:29 PM #355
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Shut up BR.
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:30 PM #356
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I hear it means cluster bombs. As in " Underage and mentally deranged Gang banger felons purchased these cluster bomb shooting rocket launchers at a gun show. It even has a pistol grip."
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Old 12-28-2012, 01:31 PM #357
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I don't know how many of the Chicago murders were firearms related this year. But I do know that Chicago has some of the most strict gun laws in the nation, yet they still have one of the highest murder rates. Just goes to show even if we make it very different to aquire firearms people will still get them, and if they can't they'll just Murder others with a different weapon.

But yeah L2k is right, just make more laws and people are going to obey them just as they obey the current ones.
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