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Old 12-22-2012, 05:25 AM #1
unforgiven59
 
 
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Question Cocker Project help needed

I have a cocker that I was given for a project, there are many parts missing
I think I've decided what I want to do but need a bit of info before I buy parts I don't want/need.

Here is what I have to start with:
http://s587.beta.photobucket.com/use...cker%20Project

Heres the plan so far;
-Half block mod, maybe mini and midget mods
-Clean up body, mill off top rail, re-anno etc
-Swing trigger frame with 2 finger trigger
-Keeping with pneumatic (partly cost, mostly wouldn't seem right to electro such an old gun)
-Polish up and rebuild the brass 3way and ram
-Replace lpr
-Smaller front block

Opinions/Input more than welcome

Heres what I want to find out;
-Where to get parts for half blocking
-Will a karni front block fit for mini mod?
-Where to get parts for mini mod?
-what changes do I need to make when going to a swing trigger frame?
-midget mod I cant seem to find much info on at all, where can I?
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Old 12-22-2012, 11:39 AM #2
HokiePB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unforgiven59 View Post
Heres what I want to find out;
-Where to get parts for half blocking
-Will a karni front block fit for mini mod?
-Where to get parts for mini mod?
-what changes do I need to make when going to a swing trigger frame?
-midget mod I cant seem to find much info on at all, where can I?
There are several guys who do the sort of milling you're talking about to cocker bodies. JCurt over on MCarterBrown has done lots, and does good work. He can also supply you with the parts you'll need: a shorter pump arm, new bolt, bolt sled, and bolt pin. I think he can slot the hammer for you as well (half blocks use the bolt pin to cock the hammer, since they no longer have a back block or cocking rod).

The body could be milled to accept a karni frontblock, but it won't fit as it is for two reasons. First the body is 99 spec, so the mounting hole in the front of the body is too small. It would need to be drilled out and re-tapped for a 2k+ spec banjo bolt. Second, the front of the lower tube would need to be rounded out, to match the round profile on the front of a karni body.

JCurt can Mini the body for you when he half blocks it, if you'd like. All you will besides the milling service is a shorter (mini-length) timing rod.

If you want to switch from a slider to a swing frame all you need to do is reverse the outer two pneumatic hoses on the three way. Other than that timing the gun is the same as a slide trigger cocker.

I wouldn't recommend midgeting a mechanical gun. You loose too much of the tube that the hammer travels in, and will need to run some odd spring settings to get the gun to shoot right. It's really not worth the hassel.

Finally - I have some of the parts you'll need, including a swing frame. I also have a milled 2K+ right feed body that might be better for what you're trying to do. I would love to trade them for your project gun (so that I could restore it). I'll PM you a few pics of my body and see if you want to trade. At the very least I'll trade my swing frame for that cut up slider with your cocker.

Good luck with your project!
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:54 PM #3
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I do not recommend using a karni front on anything buy a karni. They are round body, everything else is square, it will require a lot of milling for it to mate up, it looks hidious on a normal body and makes the gun look huge because of the added distance. Also you really cannot do it to a mini body because the front block slides over the lower tube on a karni not against it. Then you need to plug the ASA holes in the body some how. It is really not worth it IMHO.

Everything else Hokie nailed.
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:09 PM #4
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I'm in New Zealand so might look into someone closer to home to do the work, I do know a couple of engineers.
I think if I do mini it I would want to use larger 2k+ banjo and enlarge chamber to reduce the need for extra pressure.
I had similar thoughts about midgeting it as I've read very mixed results and opinions.
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Old 12-22-2012, 05:10 PM #5
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I will trade you a mini, midget, half blocked RF for your body..... Also PM'd you. I'd like to see that gun get restored, not chopped. Or whatever you want, I have a couple bodies laying here, I can do whatever chops you want done to one of them before shipping it to you. So all you'd be out is the cost of shipping to me, I'll pay the shipping to ship to you.....
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Old 12-22-2012, 06:35 PM #6
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Are the old brass parts any good or should I upgrade them?
I have seen photos of them tidied up and they look great, would also help keep the classic look of the marker.

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Old 12-22-2012, 06:39 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unforgiven59 View Post
Are the old brass parts any good or should I upgrade them?
I have seen photos of them tidied up and they look great, would also help keep the classic look of the marker.

They work just fine, just heavier then other parts.
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Old 12-23-2012, 12:28 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unforgiven59 View Post
I'm in New Zealand so might look into someone closer to home to do the work, I do know a couple of engineers.
I think if I do mini it I would want to use larger 2k+ banjo and enlarge chamber to reduce the need for extra pressure.
I had similar thoughts about midgeting it as I've read very mixed results and opinions.
if you go and get ot bored out to 2k spec when you get it mini'd you could use one of the front blocks for a mini orracle:

http://www.paintballgateway.com/wgpmifrblbld.html

might have to round off the very edge of the body a little since they were so big and square then, but its nothing you couldnt do with just a file
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Old 12-23-2012, 01:02 PM #9
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Old brass looks sexy when its shined up.

Mirror polish on the 3way and ram. Was going to get chrome but I really like the gold-brass contrast to the rest of the gun. It says 'vintage' since chrome bits were not widely available in '96.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:04 PM #10
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Been talking to him over PM, looks like I'll be able to keep this gun in one piece. Shipping him a mini/midget/halfblock RF body for him to start his project with.
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Old 12-23-2012, 03:05 PM #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebel_816 View Post
if you go and get ot bored out to 2k spec when you get it mini'd you could use one of the front blocks for a mini orracle:

http://www.paintballgateway.com/wgpmifrblbld.html

might have to round off the very edge of the body a little since they were so big and square then, but its nothing you couldnt do with just a file
Gave him that option too as that's what I went with on my project. All you have to do is a little grinding on the tabs of the front block to get it to fit or if you have a mill you just slightly mill the excess off the front block. Easy alteration.
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Old 12-23-2012, 07:58 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by addicted2dunes View Post
Been talking to him over PM, looks like I'll be able to keep this gun in one piece. Shipping him a mini/midget/halfblock RF body for him to start his project with.
good deal. It would suck to see that body cut up.

The brass pneus are fine forthe most part. I would recommend a different lpr because those sledgehammers are a paint to adjust and lpr's are cheap. for the most part, a 3-way is a 3-way. Doesnt matter if it is brass, aluminum, has 2 or 3 orings, etc. Now I will say that high end 3-way like hollowpoints, bomb, and quickswitches have a clear advantage over a stock one but those are mainly used for very precise and fast timing so unless you are confident in your timing skills and have the extra money for one, I would still with your brass 3-way. Any brass pneus looks great all polished up. I polished these by just chucking them up in a hand drill and running sand paper over them.



You can do just about anything with enough money but a karni FB would be way to expensive to get to work right and it wouldn't look great once it is dont. You can get a VF tactical FB which was the first one that WGP did with a reverse reg angle but I would recommend just a strait mini FB or leave it full body and use a 15* vert asa and turn it backwards

you get get a midgeted gun to shoot fine but it is harder
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:23 PM #13
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Yes the sledge is a PITA to adjust, but it is usually set around 85 so no need to adjust it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:32 PM #14
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No need to adjust it?

Have you gone mad?
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:44 PM #15
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No need to adjust it?

Have you gone mad?
Give me one reason to.
I have sledges on both of my STO and never adjusted them. Both shoot buttery smooth. So no. No reason to adjust it.
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Old 12-23-2012, 08:44 PM #16
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No need to adjust it?

Have you gone mad?
You have to adjust it to fine tune your cocker. Not all cockers are the same. Some use different bolt, some use different orings, different springs, etc so you want the gun to cocker reliably without too much excess pressure of you will get more barrel rise, more broken paint, and more wear on you BB, ram, and pump arm threads.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:02 PM #17
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The only things that will effect the pressure needed is the weight of the spring and size of the ram. With the factory main spring and wgp ram you will need 75-85psi. When I get home I will make a tester and check every single lpr I have for output pressure. I doubt they are going to have much varience.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:09 PM #18
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The only things that will effect the pressure needed is the weight of the spring and size of the ram. With the factory main spring and wgp ram you will need 75-85psi. When I get home I will make a tester and check every single lpr I have for output pressure. I doubt they are going to have much varience.
Well that's true but with his midget body and on custom guns you might want an lpr with a little more ease of adjust-ability
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:16 PM #19
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Well that's true but with his midget body and on custom guns you might want an lpr with a little more ease of adjust-ability
I fully agree, but the sledge is so reliable. Yes its a pita to adjust, but once it is spot on no need to fiddle with it THAT is what I was getting at really.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:25 PM #20
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And speaking from experience...... yes, you will need a higher output on the LPR on a midget, there is more spring tension to move with a midget.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:51 PM #21
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You can also pick up a Belsales twister kit to make the stock reg adjustable and keep the sledgehammer. Now it's adjustable, and everyone is right. Happy now?
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