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Old 12-23-2012, 03:20 AM #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
No, Vijil is saying that if we discounted the non-practicing Christians, then the study would be more clear and have more meaning. HE NEVER MENTIONED THE NOTION OF NOT REAL. YOU ARE THE ONE ASSOCIATING NON-PRACTICING WITH NON-REAL!!!!!
Yes he did, when he implied that someone who calls himself a scientist is not always a scientist. Going off his own analogy, someone is not necessarily a Christian just because they call themselves one. Therefore, some of these "default Christians" as he said, are not real Christians at all. Sure, throwing them out might make the study more clear to see any correlation between those who are active in their church, and those who don't have the belief at all. But then all of the non-active in their church Christians (Arguably Christian by default) who have the beliefs, would not be counted as REAL Christians. What would be the benefit of throwing out those self-identifying Christians who were not actively involved in their church? Are you saying the Pew people should have done this to give legitimacy to the study? If so, would there be any Christians then who simply are not active members of their church (A lot of Americans) who would not be counted? If so, doesn't that then skew the results? Wouldn't it be better to just ask people what their belief is, and label it as "self identifying Christians?"
(Shouldn't even be necessary though, given that the poll says that inmates were asked, and responded thusly. You know, like a poll)


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You didn't read that link did you... The problems with asking inmates religious preference are indicated in the poll. Why should I bother having a conversation when you won't even read the link in discussion? If you have a quip with the criticisms, that's fine, but you have yet to even address them...

Also, you realize Treg (who posted it) already recognized the absurdity of this study.
I read your stupid ****ing link. The whole god damned thing. Quote exactly what the point is, instead of just posting a link to a huge wall of text from a Christian webpage and declaring victory.

I'm done talking to you about this now. You literally ignore everything I say, and run the **** away from my questions like the god damned plague. I proved my case in my last post, so if you don't get it after that, then I can't help you. Respond directly to the logic I provided in my last post, and answer my questions. If you rather not, then fine, but shut the hell up.

And treghc said the article he posted, which was not a link to the actual pew poll, which is what I've been talking about if you haven't noticed. Then he spoke of the argument that atheists typically make from using the statistics. Again, this is not what I was arguing. I responded to vijil, and you jumped in and completely used your own interpretation of what was being talked about. God damn you are frustrating.

This has been a waste of time from the start. Vijil suggested a way to make the poll "more accurate," and I rejected his proposal because we would then skew the results by taking out the inmates who really were christian, but were not actively involved in their church.

You accused me of straw-manning Vijil's argument. I posted how things went in my previous post (#62), please show me where I went wrong on that timeline of events. Where did I misinterpret him, going from my last post. Anything else, and I won't be responding. Good day, sir.
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Old 12-23-2012, 06:22 AM #65
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Pretty sure you don't have to be active to be considered a religion. I'm not actively Mormon but you can bet your *** they use me to show how large the LDS church is. If active church attendance were required for religiousity you'd find that Christians were suddenly behind athiests and Muslims, heavan forbid that ever happens.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:12 AM #66
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Originally Posted by spracks21 View Post
I read your stupid ****ing link. The whole god damned thing. Quote exactly what the point is, instead of just posting a link to a huge wall of text from a Christian webpage and declaring victory.
I'm sorry, but you clearly did not read the link or you wouldn't have such stupid questions. You aren't objecting to the criticisms. You have yet to address them.

You ask what's wrong with polling people on their beliefs... I'll give you a simple one addressed in the link:
The poll measures people's beliefs in prison not when they were immediately prior to their incarceration. With the statistical effectiveness of prison-ministries, it is silly to assume that a poll of people in prison has anything to do with the religion they held when they did what got them there.

Seriously, if you have objections to the criticisms, that's fine, BUT YOU ARE SIMPLY IGNORING THEM. You pretend as if you read this link, but you have no understanding of what my criticism are, so how can I believe that you did. They aren't hidden or anything. If you had read my link, I wouldn't be wasting this time...

But, now, I am choosing to waste no more time. I'm done. Good day.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:15 AM #67
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Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
Pretty sure you don't have to be active to be considered a religion. I'm not actively Mormon but you can bet your *** they use me to show how large the LDS church is. If active church attendance were required for religiousity you'd find that Christians were suddenly behind athiests and Muslims, heavan forbid that ever happens.
To be clear, we had this big discussion about "real-Christians" and "fake-ones", but ignored that fact that only 54% considered themselves to be religious, and only 30% are practicing.

-72% affirmed affiliation with religious institutions
-54% of Federal and State Prisoners actually consider themselves religious
-33% can be confirmed to be practicing their religion

To be completely clear, as I have already said, I am annoyed by this presentation of shotty statistical analysis not the notion behind it. I am not dismissing this to argue the opposite. I do not believe atheism causes moral degrade. I am dismissing it because it is ****ty statistics worth being dismissed.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:13 PM #68
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Just for the sake of discussion, what is used to determine whether or not one is "practicing" their religion? Is there any objective control variable we can utilize? It seems that your argument is rather subjective, TSA, which I believe is what spracks was attempting to point out.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:20 PM #69
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Yes, you measure the amount of heavenly spirit that resides in them.
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Old 12-24-2012, 12:26 PM #70
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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
Just for the sake of discussion, what is used to determine whether or not one is "practicing" their religion? Is there any objective control variable we can utilize? It seems that your argument is rather subjective, TSA, which I believe is what spracks was attempting to point out.
Where? In the DOJ study? "This is demonstrated by attendance records at religious services, which averaged anywhere between 30% and 40%, depending upon the time of year and the institution in question (and who was preaching)". Often in other studies of this type, you will see sociologists look at being members of a congregation as well. Of course there are many other ways of looking at this.

Also, why are we continually ignoring that we can (and did) as them how serious they are?

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Originally Posted by Treghc View Post
It seems that your argument is rather subjective, TSA, which I believe is what spracks was attempting to point out.
This is sociology not RELS. This is how you do religious statistics. From a sociological perspective, religious participation is significantly more substantial than religious preference, but if you do use religious preference it is a unwritten rule that you MUST consider the "do you consider yourself to be religious" as well. Without it, you are simply bull****ting.

ALSO, WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING THAT THE NUMBERS ARE BEING DISTORTED? NON-RELIGIOUS DOES NOT MEAN ATHEIST!!! NON-THEIST DOES NOT MEAN NON-RELIGIOUS!!! BAD STATISTICAL ANALYSIS LEADS TO FALSE CONCLUSIONS.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:08 PM #71
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
ALSO, WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING THAT THE NUMBERS ARE BEING DISTORTED? NON-RELIGIOUS DOES NOT MEAN ATHEIST!!! NON-THEIST DOES NOT MEAN NON-RELIGIOUS!!! BAD STATISTICAL ANALYSIS LEADS TO FALSE CONCLUSIONS.
I don't know about you, but I was enculturated to believe statistics at face value and accept the conclusions of others.

That and I didn't read the other pages.
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:12 PM #72
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If there is a God, why did he let this horrible thing happen...What was the point of letting those little ones be born if he very well knew this was going to happen as it was a part of 'the plan.'
Who is god if not all of us? The idea of god is so out of context it's horrible. We are the creators, who is god but the whole of us? Something to think on there!
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Old 12-24-2012, 01:46 PM #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Where? In the DOJ study? "This is demonstrated by attendance records at religious services, which averaged anywhere between 30% and 40%, depending upon the time of year and the institution in question (and who was preaching)". Often in other studies of this type, you will see sociologists look at being members of a congregation as well. Of course there are many other ways of looking at this.
I believe the underlined point is what is being stressed. Spracks was stating that nobody should really have the authority to say who is truly a religious follower or not. Church attendance and/or regular congregational gatherings are not requirements for religious belief. They are also not requirements for entrance in to heaven, for only the embracing of Jesus Christ as our savior is the requirement needed.

Now, please understand that I'm not advocating the authentication of the article I posted, nor its study. But you can't discredit it's authenticity as much as you can credit it. The entire thing is subjective analysis and holds little ground to the intellectual.

Quote:
Also, why are we continually ignoring that we can (and did) as them how serious they are?
Sorry. Grammar needs clarifying here. It happens

Quote:
This is sociology not RELS. This is how you do religious statistics. From a sociological perspective, religious participation is significantly more substantial than religious preference, but if you do use religious preference it is a unwritten rule that you MUST consider the "do you consider yourself to be religious" as well. Without it, you are simply bull****ting.
I'm going to skip this, as I believe I've discussed the realm of subjectivity in this enough already.

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ALSO, WHY IS EVERYONE IGNORING THAT THE NUMBERS ARE BEING DISTORTED? NON-RELIGIOUS DOES NOT MEAN ATHEIST!!! NON-THEIST DOES NOT MEAN NON-RELIGIOUS!!! BAD STATISTICAL ANALYSIS LEADS TO FALSE CONCLUSIONS.
You are correct, good sir. That's all that really needs to be said
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:16 PM #74
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I believe the underlined point is what is being stressed. Spracks was stating that nobody should really have the authority to say who is truly a religious follower or not. Church attendance and/or regular congregational gatherings are not requirements for religious belief. They are also not requirements for entrance in to heaven, for only the embracing of Jesus Christ as our savior is the requirement needed.
I do not claim to "have the authority to say who is truly a religious follower", but I do have the right to determine practicing and non practicing followers, as well as self-declared religious and self-declared non-religious followers, from a sociological perspective. No where am I saying they aren't real, they aren't going to heaven, etc. I AM TALKING IN A STATISTICAL SOCIOLOGICAL PERSPECTIVE, and I (as someone who has studied this) have every right to do so.
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:17 PM #75
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Grammar fix:
Also, why are we continually ignoring that we can (and did) ask them how serious they are?
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Old 12-24-2012, 07:22 PM #76
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A bit skewed isn't it? The point of Christianity is fanatical devotion, they'll claim it whether or not it's true.
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Old 12-24-2012, 10:10 PM #77
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A bit skewed isn't it? The point of Christianity is fanatical devotion, they'll claim it whether or not it's true.
Not even close, but continue on!
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Old 12-25-2012, 12:34 AM #78
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A bit skewed isn't it? The point of Christianity is fanatical devotion, they'll claim it whether or not it's true.
Only 54% of the people in the DOJ study considered themselves religious. If that were the case, wouldn't the numbers look much differently.
30-40% of them were confirmed in attending church services, so that leaves us 14-24% of them considered themselves religious while not regularly attending service. Sure, some are probably over-exaggerating their devotion, but surely some of them are also religious but don't attend services. Plus, you don't exactly have a wide variety; Would you go as a self-proclaimed religious catholic to a protestant service regularly? Surely some would, but surely not all of them. So, at this point, we are reasonably down from 14-24%.
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Old 12-25-2012, 06:16 AM #79
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Not even close, but continue on!
So what is the point?

TSA, call then unsure but hoping for repentance?
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:16 PM #80
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Why must everyone twist this conversation into something it is not?
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Old 12-25-2012, 01:24 PM #81
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God isnt real, science is. Its almost 2013 people. Cmon.
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:09 PM #82
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Quality contribution as always...
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Old 12-25-2012, 02:18 PM #83
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Ok, so sorry. Here ill answer the question in the title.

No, it wasnt part of that "Magical Creators " plan. If there was such a person/heavenly spirit their plan would have been for those children, and adults, to live long healthy lives. Same goes for everyone on this planet, regardless of religion/ what you believe in.
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Old 12-25-2012, 03:27 PM #84
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