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Old 12-20-2012, 09:27 AM #43
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Is it so much to ask for the Religion/Philosophy section to show some intelligence, knowledge and maturity?

I can see why the Christians stay in their thread, most of you completely lack the sophistication to deal with this subject. Just juvenile, absolutely juvenile arguments.
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Old 12-20-2012, 05:31 PM #44
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Is it so much to ask for the Religion/Philosophy section to show some intelligence, knowledge and maturity?

I can see why the Christians stay in their thread, most of you completely lack the sophistication to deal with this subject. Just juvenile, absolutely juvenile arguments.
Shut up, it's Christmas and most of us are drunk and obnoxious. Where's your holiday whiskey?
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:08 PM #45
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Shut up, it's Christmas and most of us are drunk and obnoxious. Where's your holiday whiskey?
Killed it last night. Can you sense the frustration I felt this morning?
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:18 PM #46
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Killed it last night. Can you sense the frustration I felt this morning?
Indeed I can, and a whiskey shortage makes it totally warranted. You're a brave soul for continuing right on posting sober. I don't know if I'd have it in me.
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Old 12-20-2012, 07:45 PM #47
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Indeed I can, and a whiskey shortage makes it totally warranted. You're a brave soul for continuing right on posting sober. I don't know if I'd have it in me.
I've had a lot of down time at work recently. I finish projects much faster than they come in.
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Old 12-20-2012, 10:23 PM #48
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I'll take responsibility for that. Sorry, but I needed to find a place other than face book to post my frustration with comments I see there. I kinda wanted to see how the 'god's planners' lay it out. My feelings are that if there is a god (there isn't) and this horrible event was 'part of his plan' then he is in fact an ******* and want no part of him. Close the thread if you want, Im over it.
No, it is a question worth asking. It is a question of the ages actually. It is one in which many have tried to address. If you are truly interested, NT Wright and Ehrman recently had a debate on the subject.

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correlation does not imply causation, but if they're in prison they're obviously a bad christian and likely violated one of the commandments to get there. The ones doing life or on death row certainly did... Then again if you want to get literal with it the majority of people in America are bad christians but still identify themselves as such and maintain the core belief that the big man up in the sky is watching them masturbate.
I'm not quite sure what you think I said. All I pointed out was Sprack's strawman.
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:47 AM #49
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It wasn't a strawman. Vigil said it would be more accurate if we took church involvement into account, in an effort to separate the "real" Christians from the default ones. I said that he is in no position to make the call of who gets to be a real Christian, and the pew poll is just that, a poll. And because it's a poll, you take the word of the persons being polled. The fact remains that these people identified as some type of Christian. I agree that some are simply default Christians, but that is still their religion. And yes, I read your link, TSA2. No idea what you wanted me to see. I think you might be strawmanning me actually..
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Old 12-21-2012, 12:36 PM #50
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Redo the stats for only those that are actively involved in their church and it'll be more accurate.
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Bull****, who are you to say who the real Christians are and are not? You can't just pick and choose the "proper ones" and label everyone else as not Christian enough to count.
His argument: The statistic is wrong because it lumps atheists and theists into groups to compare while ignoring the large discrepancies between the non church attender, the mid church attender, the always church attender, etc.

Your strawman of his argument:The statistic is wrong because real Christian don't commit near as many crimes as those fake Christians

He presented an argument about church attendance as a prerequisite. You responded against an argument about bad Christians not counting as real Christians. Strawman.

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The fact remains that these people identified as some type of Christian. I agree that some are simply default Christians, but that is still their religion. And yes, I read your link, TSA2.
The fact that all of those prison ratios are skewed... Not sure how you aren't following this.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:28 PM #51
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The fact that anyone could believe that god caused this in an attempt to get more praise put of his subjects is a shocking and horrifying look into the mind of a Christian. I am proud to say I do not have a single religious friend.
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Old 12-21-2012, 07:47 PM #52
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His argument: The statistic is wrong because it lumps atheists and theists into groups to compare while ignoring the large discrepancies between the non church attender, the mid church attender, the always church attender, etc.
How can a poll of what religion people identify as be "wrong?" What would be the point of making such discrepancies? To discount the default/fake/lesser Christians from the poll?

The poll simply gives the percentages of inmates who have a particular religious preference. How does throwing out the self identifying Christians who are/were not actively involved with their church make the poll more accurate, or correct (Without you applying your own aims for the using of the collected data)?

Quote:
He presented an argument about church attendance as a prerequisite. You responded against an argument about bad Christians not counting as real Christians. Strawman.

The fact that all of those prison ratios are skewed... Not sure how you aren't following this.
Fact? I'm just talking about the raw data from the pew research center poll. That data is not skewed. Only counting the Christians who are active in their church would be a skewing of the poll data.

I'm not sure if you and I are just on two very different wave lengths here, or what, but maybe it'd be better if Vigil told me exactly what he meant instead of you. His scientist comment (A flawed comparison, but that's irrelevant to this) leads me to believe that his point was that only practicing Christians should earn the label and be counted in the study. My argument was that the poll was about people's religious beliefs, not practices. Just what religious demographic they identified as.

Vigil, we don't have to debate it if you rather not, but what exactly was your point when you suggested throwing out the inmates in the study who identify themselves as Christian but are not actively involved in their church?
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:06 PM #53
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lolz nevermind
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Old 12-21-2012, 11:09 PM #54
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Okay.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:03 PM #55
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
His argument: The statistic is wrong because it lumps atheists and theists into groups to compare while ignoring the large discrepancies between the non church attender, the mid church attender, the always church attender, etc.

Your strawman of his argument:The statistic is wrong because real Christian don't commit near as many crimes as those fake Christians

He presented an argument about church attendance as a prerequisite. You responded against an argument about bad Christians not counting as real Christians. Strawman.
either way it's a poor argument by stating that you have to go to church to be a Christian and how often they go shouldn't matter. especially because nobody to my knowledge has done a study to see if how often a person attends church has any effect on how often they commit crimes. I know of one particular demographic that regularly goes to church and has strong faith and has some members who engage in pedophilia... That's an extreme outlier but a valid argument.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:17 PM #56
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You are putting words in my mouth.

Vigil, pointed out that the study ignored a possible discrepancy between non church attenders and frequent church attenders. Spracks turned it into an argument of "real Christians" vs "fake Christians". All I did was point out this strawman. I am not "stating that you have to go to church to be a Christian" to use your words. I am looking at a statistical study and pointing out a flaw.

This is no different than seeing a study saying "eating steak will make you stronger" without analyzing how much steak one eats. Sure, a little steak in your diet will give you more protein and is probably good for you. Eating 4000 calories of steak and only steak each day would probably make you worse. In the same sense, this study says "Christians commit more crimes" while ignoring how often someone practices that religion (a very important factor). No one (besides Spracks) alluded to these people being "less Christian" or "fake Christians". We are asking for a more accurate study because this one is largely meaningless.

On top of that, the numbers in the study are severely skewed (as shown in the article linked).
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:26 PM #57
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I give up on you TSA2. You are wrong about my perception of vigil's argument, wrong about what I'm saying, and are now strawmanning me. Maybe you shouldn't assume you know what someone else meant, and let them answer and respond themselves. I asked you some questions in my last post, and if you wish to continue this, you need to answer them please. They were not rhetorical.
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Old 12-22-2012, 02:41 PM #58
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I give up on you TSA2. You are wrong about my perception of vigil's argument, wrong about what I'm saying, and are now strawmanning me. Maybe you shouldn't assume you know what someone else meant, and let them answer and respond themselves.
I'm sorry but I don't see how I can be any more clear:
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Redo the stats for only those that are actively involved in their church and it'll be more accurate.
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Bull****, who are you to say who the real Christians are and are not? You can't just pick and choose the "proper ones" and label everyone else as not Christian enough to count.
--
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I asked you some questions in my last post, and if you wish to continue this, you need to answer them please. They were not rhetorical.
Also, you clearly didn't read my link, or you wouldn't have asked those questions. Every single one was addressed. I am not going to waste my time typing out answers to questions that have already been answered by a much more reputable source than me.
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Old 12-22-2012, 03:17 PM #59
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Different thread.

Is anyone else a little bored with refrain of moral degradation (read secularization) of America is the cause of these events and to be correlated with their supposed increase in frequency?
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Old 12-22-2012, 04:43 PM #60
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Yes. While it's often a God things (Mike Huckabee saying the shootings were because we removed God from the schools), I have noticed quite a bit of "this country is morally failing" implied without religion as well. For instance, Fox portraying this election of a moral failing in which we have more takers than givers when in reality is was simply a Mitt being over-stretched trying to appeal to the normals and the crazy far rights.

It's all rather low brow.
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Old 12-22-2012, 07:56 PM #61
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Yes. While it's often a God things (Mike Huckabee saying the shootings were because we removed God from the schools), I have noticed quite a bit of "this country is morally failing" implied without religion as well. For instance, Fox portraying this election of a moral failing in which we have more takers than givers when in reality is was simply a Mitt being over-stretched trying to appeal to the normals and the crazy far rights.

It's all rather low brow.
I didn't realize how absurd of a notion it is until I'm sitting here in Madrid with bare breasts and cursing on tv and they're discussing how crazy the US because backpacks with ballistic plates really exist. The rest of the western world does fine without such absurd notions as religions are the only thing to instill morals, why can't we follow suit? I don't mean taking guns away but there's a lot that can happen to improve things without prohibition but it seems the only two things we ever discuss are the extremes. Providing adequate care and treatment for the mentally ill always seems to fall under that Obummercare is socialism rhetoric that stymies a decent debate. So much data is out there, the examples are abundant, the framework is in place so why are we discussing how taxes will impact 3% of the population?
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Old 12-22-2012, 10:31 PM #62
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Probably a misleading stat treghc, given that in the US everyone calls themselves Christian by default. Redo the stats for only those that are actively involved in their church and it'll be more accurate. That's if the stat is genuine at all - read skWilliams comment.
Vijil is saying that if we discount the default Christians, or the ones not actively involved in their church, then the study would be more accurate. Which is bull****, because the poll from which Treghc's article was based on is, I believe, the pew research center poll. A poll. Inmates were asked their religious preference, and answered. Who is he, or you TSA2, to say that the default Christians are not worthy of being counted as Christians in this poll?

Which is what I meant by this:
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Bull****, who are you to say who the real Christians are and are not? You can't just pick and choose the "proper ones" and label everyone else as not Christian enough to count.
Which prompted the below response:

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Yeah. When somebody calls themselves a scientist that makes them a scientist, even if they never actually do science.

Whatever you say man.
And this leads me to believe that Vijil is saying that just because people call themselves Christian, it doesn't make them Christians. So, they would be fake Christians and should not count in the previously mentioned poll/statistic. Am I wrong here?
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Old 12-23-2012, 02:06 AM #63
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Vijil is saying that if we discount the default Christians, or the ones not actively involved in their church, then the study would be more accurate.
No, Vijil is saying that if we discounted the non-practicing Christians, then the study would be more clear and have more meaning. HE NEVER MENTIONED THE NOTION OF NOT REAL. YOU ARE THE ONE ASSOCIATING NON-PRACTICING WITH NON-REAL!!!!!

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Which is bull****, because the poll from which Treghc's article was based on is, I believe, the pew research center poll. A poll. Inmates were asked their religious preference, and answered.
You didn't read that link did you... The problems with asking inmates religious preference are indicated in the poll. Why should I bother having a conversation when you won't even read the link in discussion? If you have a quip with the criticisms, that's fine, but you have yet to even address them...

Also, you realize Treg (who posted it) already recognized the absurdity of this study.
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I'm not advocating the legitimacy of the article.

It's a stupid argument to make in the first place and deserves a stupid response. I enjoy popping that link in and watching hilarity ensue.
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