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Old 12-16-2012, 10:55 AM #22
Volucris
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The way I was taught it was that God lets this happen. You're no more than a potential source of praise or tool for spreading faith in him until you're dead.
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Old 12-16-2012, 12:42 PM #23
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"Or think you that you will enter Paradise without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? They were afflicted with severe poverty and ailments and were so shaken that even the Messenger and those who believed along with him said, “When (will come) the Help of Allaah?” Yes! Certainly, the Help of Allaah is near!" (Qur'an 2:214)
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Old 12-16-2012, 01:08 PM #24
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Allah wanted all the children to die because he wasn't allowed in the school:

Quran (3:56) - "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."
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Old 12-16-2012, 04:08 PM #25
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Originally Posted by spracks21 View Post
Christianity is a sad and depressing religion.
Certain strands can be yes. Please realize that the American Church is not all of Christianity.

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Really, Treg?

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Redo the stats for only those that are actively involved in their church and it'll be more accurate.
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Bull****, who are you to say who the real Christians are and are not? You can't just pick and choose the "proper ones" and label everyone else as not Christian enough to count.
Spracks, do you see what you did wrong? From a statistical/correlational perspective, it may be unfair to discern between a "proper and improper Christian", but it is certainly fair to discern between incarceration rates and Church attendance. You blatantly twisted his point and made quite a strawman.

--

The correlation between incarceration and religion is largely considered a joke in the academic community to be frank. When you look at the evidence, the argument is less than compelling. This is worth a read: http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

--

At the risk of sounding pretentious, I expected better than this from you all. This is rather low brow anti-intellectualism.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:00 PM #26
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In regards to it being a sad/depressing religion, that was just going off of the way he was describing his outlook on life. My response was specific to him, there.

To the rest, I'm not really defending or championing the prison study. As far as I can tell, it mostly suggests that the belief in God/Christianity does nothing to hinder crime, or "immoral" behavior. Or basically that belief in God does not make you a good person. The fact that the ratios are in the atheist demographics favor, to me, is more of a "In fact, their percentage is even LOWER (Opposite of what most people would probably expect)."

And with vigil, whom I like as a poster, I was more upset with yet another Christian seemingly trying to choose who gets to count as real Christians. This occurs a lot, whether its the WBC, money-driven televangelists, followers who interpret scripture differently than the main-stream, or murderers who kill with a cross necklace around their necks. If someone identifies as such, I say they would know much better than you what their beliefs are, so they should count, regardless of church attendance and involvement. You don't like that Christianity is the default religion in America? Me neither. Let's work to change that. But until then, a "bad" Christian is still a believing Christian, and counts as such.

The fact is that the ratio for self identifying Christians in prison is unfavorable, compared to the ratio for atheists and secular people. Conclusion: Atheists are no more likely to become criminals than Christians. That's really it.

EDIT: On another some-what relative note, I'd like to see a study of prison inmates there for pot related offenses. My guess is that the ratio for secularists who are incarcerated for pot crimes is higher than that of Christians/religious people. Because of this, if we were to remove these people from the study (Or at least in two states where it is now legal), the prison numbers would be even more in favor of atheists/nones.

Just a guess though, and my reason for thinking these prison numbers will likely only become more favorable for American atheists as time goes on. But then again, maybe it wouldn't be significant at all. Who knows.
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Old 12-16-2012, 05:51 PM #27
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Originally Posted by spracks21 View Post
In regards to it being a sad/depressing religion, that was just going off of the way he was describing his outlook on life. My response was specific to him, there.
I also find that worldview to be depressing. I don't even quite understand how a Christian can come to that conclusion. To be honest, I find it all rather heretical.

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To the rest, I'm not really defending or championing the prison study. As far as I can tell, it mostly suggests that the belief in God/Christianity does nothing to hinder crime, or "immoral" behavior. Or basically that belief in God does not make you a good person. The fact that the ratios are in the atheist demographics favor, to me, is more of a "In fact, their percentage is even LOWER (Opposite of what most people would probably expect)."

The fact is that the ratio for self identifying Christians in prison is unfavorable, compared to the ratio for atheists and secular people. Conclusion: Atheists are no more likely to become criminals than Christians. That's really it.
The misleading statistics presented in these arguments are quite irrelevant to me as they clearly done by someone with no regard or understanding for either proper polling or religious statistics. They are academically dishonest at best. But while I am thoroughly underwhelmed with the value of these statistics, I do also reject the notion that atheism leads to criminal behavior from which this response surely comes.

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And with vigil, whom I like as a poster, I was more upset with yet another Christian seemingly trying to choose who gets to count as real Christians. This occurs a lot, whether its the WBC, money-driven televangelists, followers who interpret scripture differently than the main-stream, or murderers who kill with a cross necklace around their necks. If someone identifies as such, I say they would know much better than you what their beliefs are, so they should count, regardless of church attendance and involvement. You don't like that Christianity is the default religion in America? Me either. Let's work to change that. But until then, a "bad" Christian is still a believing Christian, and counts as such.
I agree it is "dishonest" to exclude people from the group, but recognize that exclusion is often due to judgement of the people's actions projected upon the everyone else. If our culture didn't love to make baseless generalization about people, the need to distance one's self from others wouldn't be necessary. From example, the WBC's actions are rather homophobic. They have given Christians the reputation of homophobism. I am not homophobic. I don't want their actions projecting judgments upon me. It seems natural for someone to want to distance themselves from someone who is portraying their group poorly by saying they aren't truly part of the group. In my opinion, the proper way to handle this would be to simply say that these people are very different Christians then I. I do agree that we cannot judge what a true Christian is by whether their beliefs are right. But we surely can identify that their beliefs and practices are much different then mine and recognize that judgments made against them shouldn't be imposed upon me.

Note: I recognize that this is hardly an exclusively Christian problem. This is a cultural problem. Atheists, surely, are misrepresented as much as anyone. So, as someone who is misrepresented, you could possible cut some slack to someone who is dealing with the same.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:07 PM #28
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The prison study was a pew research poll. Pretty credible source, don't you agree? Or were you talking specifically about the image Treghc posted? Because yes, certainly those memes and images are meant to have bias and agendas. But the actual study itself is very much credible.

I'm cool with everything else in your last post though. And yes, the WBC and the like are very different Christians than most, just as Islamic terrorists are likely very much different than the rest of the religions followers. But these terrorists are still of the Musilm demographic. Christianity is an umbrella term for the purposes of the study, and those asked should be labeled as they identify themselves. Whether they are extraordinarily devout, or only use their religious beliefs when confronted with great fear/adversity, they are still their religious beliefs, and should count as such. It is their religion.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:23 PM #29
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The prison study was a pew research poll. Pretty credible source, don't you agree? Or were you talking specifically about the image Treghc posted? Because yes, certainly those memes and images are meant to have bias and agendas. But the actual study itself is very much credible.
The pew research poll is fine. The manipulation of that polling is the problem. Did you see the link I posted? http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

To be frank, I don't care what specific article we talk about. I have seen this conversation way too many times and they are all the same. They are all built on misunderstanding, misinformation, and ignorance of how to properly use religious statistics. The article above addressed all of those issues quite well.

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I'm cool with everything else in your last post though. And yes, the WBC and the like are very different Christians than most, just as Islamic terrorists are likely very much different than the rest of the religions followers. But these terrorists are still of the Musilm demographic. Christianity is an umbrella term for the purposes of the study, and those asked should be labeled as they identify themselves. Whether they are extraordinarily devout, or only use their religious beliefs when confronted with great fear/adversity, they are still their religious beliefs, and should count as such. It is their religion.
I will agree that we should recognize the inclusion of all people who proclaim themselves as Christians, but I will continue to assert the sheer irrelevance of any conversation built upon such terms.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:30 PM #30
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I'll check out your link later, but I wasn't having the sort of argument you are speaking of, so it will likely be just out of curiosity more than anything. I've told you what I think the significance of the study is, so I hope you don't automatically group me in with how others use the statistics either.

Anyway, my fantasy football season is over, so I'm going to go do some Sunday night drinking and hopefully watch my 49ers beat down the Patriots. I'm out.
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Old 12-16-2012, 06:42 PM #31
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I'll check out your link later, but I wasn't having the sort of argument you are speaking of, so it will likely be just out of curiosity more than anything. I've told you what I think the significance of the study is, so I hope you don't automatically group me in with how others use the statistics either.
Sorry, I wasn't clear. All the literature from which people who argue this are coming from is rooted in the same couple studies which are flawed. Once you read the article, I believe that will make more sense.
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:45 PM #32
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I would classify myself as an atheist, but mainstream atheism/new atheism whatever term you want to use is just as close minded as the religious these days; I really find it to do a disservice to open thought and dialogue than positive. IMO
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Old 12-16-2012, 10:57 PM #33
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Really, Treg?
Allow me to clarify.

I'm not advocating the legitimacy of the article. Nor do I think it even matters. People are people regardless of religious belief. The things is, the people saying that a lack of God was the reason for the shootings would be dumb enough to take such a article at its face value.

It's a stupid argument to make in the first place and deserves a stupid response. I enjoy popping that link in and watching hilarity ensue.

I'm sorry if you don't find people being intellectual in this thread. This thread is not a place of intellectual discussion. It's simply a rehash of an age-old argument with a few substituted words. I don't see the point in any discussion.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:01 PM #34
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Allow me to clarify.

I'm not advocating the legitimacy of the article. Nor do I think it even matters. People are people regardless of religious belief. The things is, the people saying that a lack of God was the reason for the shootings would be dumb enough to take such a article at its face value.

It's a stupid argument to make in the first place and deserves a stupid response. I enjoy popping that link in and watching hilarity ensue.

I'm sorry if you don't find people being intellectual in this thread. This thread is not a place of intellectual discussion. It's simply a rehash of an age-old argument with a few substituted words. I don't see the point in any discussion.
So.....trolling

Bad forum captain! *smacks nose with newspaper*
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:12 PM #35
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Not trolling on PBN though. So it's okay

(but maybe I like a good smacking every now and then)
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:15 PM #36
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Allow me to clarify.

I'm not advocating the legitimacy of the article. Nor do I think it even matters. People are people regardless of religious belief. The things is, the people saying that a lack of God was the reason for the shootings would be dumb enough to take such a article at its face value.

It's a stupid argument to make in the first place and deserves a stupid response. I enjoy popping that link in and watching hilarity ensue.

I'm sorry if you don't find people being intellectual in this thread. This thread is not a place of intellectual discussion. It's simply a rehash of an age-old argument with a few substituted words. I don't see the point in any discussion.
That's fair, I suppose.
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Old 12-16-2012, 11:18 PM #37
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(but maybe I like a good smacking every now and then)
Oh yea?
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:04 AM #38
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Christ, this again?

God let this happen because he had to for modern Christian theology to work. It'd be unpopular to suggest he wanted, made ore let it happen, and since he's omniscient he can't claim ignorance. Even though nobody can know the mind of God, people apparently know it well enough to rule those out.

But let's not kid ourselves here, God is superfluous to this event. Children died because another 20 year old child didn't know how to handle his issues, and he didn't receive the attention he needed from his family/community.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:16 PM #39
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I'm sorry if you don't find people being intellectual in this thread. This thread is not a place of intellectual discussion. It's simply a rehash of an age-old argument with a few substituted words. I don't see the point in any discussion.
I'll take responsibility for that. Sorry, but I needed to find a place other than face book to post my frustration with comments I see there. I kinda wanted to see how the 'god's planners' lay it out. My feelings are that if there is a god (there isn't) and this horrible event was 'part of his plan' then he is in fact an ******* and want no part of him. Close the thread if you want, Im over it.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:39 PM #40
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:13 PM #41
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I think the problem is that there are different Christian views and sometimes the for the lack of a better word "nuts" are more vocal.

The reality is whether you believe in a God or not we all can agree that this was a tragedy that we wish would never have happened. But it did and each of us are left with dealing with the reality that life is precious and yet it can be snatched away an instant and violently as well.

As for Christians which is usually the target of these questions in this forum I find that most of the time the views are addressed to some form of American Evangelism.

I'm a Catholic and so my views many times are much different and hence why I rarely join these discussions.

However, here's a good video on this issue from a Catholic Christian point of view:
http://youtu.be/yV1mCVmiixo
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:22 PM #42
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Probably a misleading stat treghc, given that in the US everyone calls themselves Christian by default. Redo the stats for only those that are actively involved in their church and it'll be more accurate. That's if the stat is genuine at all - read skWilliams comment.
Not really, when you look at the composition of atheists you'll find that the majority are well educated individuals, that are likely employed, and generally are nice to other people. When you look at the motivations for crime and the demographics of the incarcerated you will see that your average atheist will not be found there.

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Why? Honestly why?
You have to work and struggle every day just to stay alive. Life is terrible and horrible.

You're going to tell me you're rather not be in heaven right now? Or are you implying those little kids went to hell?
I'd rather still be alive. How much life did you have the chance to experience when you were six or seven? How many items on your bucket list did you have checked off?

All this, 'they're in a better place' talk does nothing but attempt to comfort the survivors.

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Spracks, do you see what you did wrong? From a statistical/correlational perspective, it may be unfair to discern between a "proper and improper Christian", but it is certainly fair to discern between incarceration rates and Church attendance. You blatantly twisted his point and made quite a strawman.

--

The correlation between incarceration and religion is largely considered a joke in the academic community to be frank. When you look at the evidence, the argument is less than compelling. This is worth a read: http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison.html

correlation does not imply causation, but if they're in prison they're obviously a bad christian and likely violated one of the commandments to get there. The ones doing life or on death row certainly did... Then again if you want to get literal with it the majority of people in America are bad christians but still identify themselves as such and maintain the core belief that the big man up in the sky is watching them masturbate.
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