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Old 12-19-2012, 01:14 PM #43
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Wage vs. Salary does not apply. An employee is asked to do more work. He either should be, or shouldn't be compensated for it no matter what level you are, Under both forms of employment you are paid to do X job. Performance outside of that is extra. You are arguing a CEO should do more work "so he feels better" but when this is asked of the line worker that is is absurdity because he gets paid in a different format. And, no, I do not need experience to know that if people work more, they are going to want to be paid more, no matter what level they are.



So then why are the expectations different for the CEO? Either way more work is being done.
Expectation & privilege have everything to do with where you sit on the totem pole.

I would argue that your average CEO is in the same boat as the average worker in respects to goal and motivation.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:15 PM #44
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Class warfare.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:20 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Expectation & privilege have everything to do with where you sit on the totem pole.

I would argue that your average CEO is in the same boat as the average worker in respects to goal and motivation.
I am guessing you are forgetting a ? or forgot a "not" somewhere. Either way, yes expectations are different. However, to expect one to work overtime (in addition to the 16 hour days they likely already put in) and tell them "oh do it for free out of the goodness of your heart" and then tell the others to stay an hour past 5pm it suddenly becomes absurd. Doesn't make sense in my mind.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:31 PM #46
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I am guessing you are forgetting a ? or forgot a "not" somewhere. Either way, yes expectations are different. However, to expect one to work overtime (in addition to the 16 hour days they likely already put in) and tell them "oh do it for free out of the goodness of your heart" and then tell the others to stay an hour past 5pm it suddenly becomes absurd. Doesn't make sense in my mind.
No that was serious. Read it again, cognisant of my first statement.

Are you talking about factory workers or CEOs?
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:33 PM #47
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Class warfare.
Indeed. An obfuscation of the link between society function and occupation accounts for much of this. Determining class by wealth is another. Thanks England.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:38 PM #48
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Oh...no. People who work on ground level jobs with cash registers are not the same people as CEO's when it comes to work ethic. That's just silly.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:39 PM #49
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post

No that was serious. Read it again, cognisant of my first statement.

Are you talking about factory workers or CEOs?
I was confused by the statement that CEOs have the same goals and motivations as factory workers. I though you were be sarcastic.

I am talking about both. In my mind they should both be compensated if they work outside the normal expectations of their respective positions.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:57 PM #50
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Wage vs. Salary does not apply. An employee is asked to do more work. He either should be, or shouldn't be compensated for it no matter what level you are, Under both forms of employment you are paid to do X job. Performance outside of that is extra. You are arguing a CEO should do more work "so he feels better" but when this is asked of the line worker that is is absurdity because he gets paid in a different format. And, no, I do not need experience to know that if people work more, they are going to want to be paid more, no matter what level they are.
I think the argument is that the CEO is earning well above his marginal product.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:03 PM #51
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I was confused by the statement that CEOs have the same goals and motivations as factory workers. I though you were be sarcastic.

I am talking about both. In my mind they should both be compensated if they work outside the normal expectations of their respective positions.
Why should they be compensated for going above the call of duty? That is expected.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:03 PM #52
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So a CEO that (for an example) completes a merger, or divests a segment, that generates $750 million in savings over 3-5 years is making more than that?
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:04 PM #53
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Why should they be compensated for going above the call of duty? That is expected.
Exactly but to expect it of one person but not another is a double standard.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:06 PM #54
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Why should they be compensated for going above the call of duty? That is expected.
Production will stop where marginal cost = marginal revenue. There is no "going above the call of duty." If the worker decides to produce more it will be because some third factor increases his marginal revenue or decreases the marginal cost of producing more output.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:22 PM #55
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Exactly but to expect it of one person but not another is a double standard.
1) I have zero issues with double standards.

2) Expectations are, again, based on ones position in the hierarchy. What those expectations are, is subject to debate.

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Production will stop where marginal cost = marginal revenue. There is no "going above the call of duty." If the worker decides to produce more it will be because some third factor increases his marginal revenue or decreases the marginal cost of producing more output.
This basically plays back into the distinction between "career" and "vocation" as each would affect a workers motivations and goals.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:02 PM #56
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I think the argument is that the CEO is earning well above his marginal product.
The CEO is doing a job you lack the IQ to even comprehend.
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Old 12-19-2012, 06:46 PM #57
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Now, please give me a clear answer. Is this a moral issue or an efficiency issue?
Hold that thought a minutes.

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Income inequality is very bad among industrialized nations.
You are making a moral judgment yourself without supporting it. Income inequality is going to exist any time two people are paid different wages or allowed different hours per week. At what point does income equality become "bad" and who establishes that point?

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Does the CEO have more responsibility? Rhetorical. Can the CEO kill a company? YES. Can a CEO make a company better? Yes.

Does the fry cook have more responsibility? Rhetorical, again. Can a single fry cook kill a company? NO. Can a single fry cook, performing inside his role, make a company better? No.
How dare you bring reason into this class warfare conversation.

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Professional drive. People need to learn that it's not only a "what's in it for me" ... he could do well for the company and workers, and that should be its own reward.
How many hours do you work per week for your employer for which you are not paid?

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Society promotes that we each act within our own rational self interest, and in practice this leads to the lowest common denominator interests. Thus the worker producing 50 more units for any other reason than for an increase in compensation is unrealistic.
One could argue that it is human nature (or human instinct if you prefer) that we all act to further our self interests. Even philanthropic acts can be attributed to maximizing the actor's self interest.

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I would argue that your average CEO is in the same boat as the average worker in respects to goal and motivation.
Certainly to a large degree. One is just more capable of attaining a higher goal than the other based on how our society is structured.

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I think the argument is that the CEO is earning well above his marginal product.
Who makes that determination?
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:57 PM #58
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Who makes that determination?
.

Who are you l2k to decide what people should make?
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:11 PM #59
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Why can't anyone see the obvious here? It's a CEO's job (for which he is paid a salary) to run a company as efficiently and effectively as possible. That is the normal expectation of his position. If said CEO passes on a deal because he isn't motivated enough then he isn't doing his job and should be replaced. Salaried CEO =/= equal line worker in the given scenario. A line worker is given a set amount of time to work and an expectation of what should be accomplished in that time, nothing more, nothing less.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:40 PM #60
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Can any of you guys explain to me what Vikram Pandit contributed to Citigroup to earn 240 million in compensation? Looks like blatant rent-seeking to me...
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:59 PM #61
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It doesn't matter, that is what they agreed to pay him.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:06 PM #62
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One could argue that it is human nature (or human instinct if you prefer) that we all act to further our self interests. Even philanthropic acts can be attributed to maximizing the actor's self interest.
Sure you could argue it, but what exists first, communities of individuals or the individuals themselves?

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Certainly to a large degree. One is just more capable of attaining a higher goal than the other based on how our society is structured.
Social structure? Sure, but then again, who we are is determined, for the most part, by our genes. What isn't accounted for by those, is made up for, by our nurture.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:01 PM #63
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Can any of you guys explain to me what Vikram Pandit contributed to Citigroup to earn 240 million in compensation? Looks like blatant rent-seeking to me...
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In March 2006, Pandit and John Havens, along with Guru Ramakrishnan (former global head of trading, technology and new products in the equities group at Morgan Stanley), started the hedge fund Old Lane LLC. Citi bought the company in 2007 for $800 million bringing both Pandit and Havens into Citi leadership.

In January 2011, after working for two years for a salary of $1 a year, his annual base was raised to $1.75 million for the progress Citi made under Vikramís leadership. After posting five consecutive quarterly profits, Citigroup in May 2011, announced $23.2m retention award to Pandit making him one of the highest paid CEOs.

While CEO of Citigroup in 2007, Vikram S. Pandit earned an annualized compensation of $3,164,320, which included a base salary of $250,000, stocks granted of $2,914,320, and options granted of $0.[27] In 2008, he earned a total compensation of $38,237,437, which included a base salary of $958,333, stocks granted of $28,830,000, and options granted of $8,432,911. However, after adjusting for Citigroupís sunken share price, the package was worth just a few million dollars.[29] Pandit did receive $165 million for his low performing hedge fund which was purchased by Citi in 2007.
Sounds like a mix of purchase of his company, among other things.
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