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Old 12-14-2012, 12:44 PM #22
EgoManiacal
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
That means nothing to me. Either governmental intervention is right and the constitution is wrong, or governmental intervention is wrong and the constitution is right. The constitution is a declaration of what we think is right and wrong. The constitution saying something is wrong isn't a reason in itself.
But... but... CONSTITUTION!

It's an appropriate response to anything, right?
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:11 PM #23
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Originally Posted by EgoManiacal View Post
But... but... CONSTITUTION!

It's an appropriate response to anything, right?
Barrel isn't typically that guy. He's a good poster. Others though? Oh, hell ya.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:14 PM #24
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there is already a federal and state minimum wage, this guy is getting paid that at two different mcdonalds. mcdonalds makes it very clear that you arent going to get a raise unless you are promoted to management, this guy either doesnt meet management standards, or the owners of the stores he works at just dislikes him for w/e reason. he probably should have looked for a new job 15 years ago
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:25 PM #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
I'm assuming you intended to quote me. You didn't really answer my question. You claimed that "they aren't doing anything illegal", but laws can change and government can choose to enforce a lot or a little. The fact that it isn't currently illegal is an absurd notion.

Now, please give me a clear answer. Is this a moral issue or an efficiency issue? Do you believe that a government shouldn't interfere because it is wrong or because it is ineffective? If you believe it to be immoral, then why? If you believe it to be less effective, then why?
It is not the government's responsibility. The government should not tell companies how much to pay employees (aside from minimum wage). The government should not tell companies how much profit they can make. The government should not tell companies what products to sell (again, assuming legal products). Why you ask? Because then it is like the government is running the company. Why is that bad? because then eventually the government runs a bunch of companies and before you know it everything is state owned.

Why do you want the government interfering with companies so much? Like I have said a thousand times, if they are so ****ty, if they are so unbearable to work at, why are people there? why do the shop there?

Let the free market work for Christ's sake. The government doesn't need to play "big brother" when you think a company needs "fixing" because you don't like what they do or how much they pay their CEO. If you don't like it so much, go become a CEO and take $8.25 an hour. You are well within your right to do that.

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Old 12-14-2012, 01:34 PM #26
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Originally Posted by benji25 View Post
It is not the government's responsibility. The government should not tell companies how much to pay employees (aside from minimum wage). The government should not tell companies how much profit they can make. The government should not tell companies what products to sell (again, assuming legal products).
You keep giving me these normative statements with no real justification. You appear to be making a moral argument but just won't admit it.

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Why you ask? Because then it is like the government is running the company. Why is that bad? because then eventually the government runs a bunch of companies and before you know it everything is state owned.
Slippery slope fallacy. I see no reason to believe that a small increase in taxes for the purpose of income equality (which will better the economy and by extension the companies) will lead to state ownership. By that logic, laws lead to slavery, taxes lead to feudalism, and speed limits lead to banning cars. This is a ridiculous argument.

And even if somehow this did lead to state ownership, why is that bad? Are you making a moral argument or an efficiency one? Is this normative or positive?

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Let the free market work for Chris's sake. The government doesn't need to play "big brother" when you think a company needs "fixing" because you don't like what they do or how much they pay their CEO.
WHY? You keep saying "the free market should" and "the government shouldn't" with no real reason why besides because...

--

I feel as if you are completely dodging the conversation. Please be straight with me.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:40 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
You keep giving me these normative statements with no real justification. You appear to be making a moral argument but just won't admit it.



Slippery slope fallacy. I see no reason to believe that a small increase in taxes for the purpose of income equality (which will better the economy and by extension the companies) will lead to state ownership. By that logic, laws lead to slavery, taxes lead to feudalism, and speed limits lead to banning cars. This is a ridiculous argument.

And even if somehow this did lead to state ownership, why is that bad? Are you making a moral argument or an efficiency one? Is this normative or positive?



WHY? You keep saying "the free market should" and "the government shouldn't" with no real reason why besides because...

--

I feel as if you are completely dodging the conversation. Please be straight with me.
I am going off of this quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by skeeter456 View Post
Ok, so i was just reading a post about a MacDaddy Donalds (McDonald's) worker only makes $8.25 an hour after being there for 20 years, MacDaddy Donalds CEO makes $8.8mil. What would you think if our govt. capped the earnings of a establishment and after that they had to put the rest into their works?
All of this **** costs money. I don't know why you think I am making a "moral" argument. I am trying to promote a free market where the government doesn't rack up $15 trillion in debt getting involved in **** it doesn't need to. I would like to have spent more time on this post but I have to leave.
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Old 12-14-2012, 01:47 PM #28
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If it isn't a moral argument, what evidence do you have to make you believe that free unregulated markets are more effective?

**I am leaving town as well for the next couple days, so we can continue this later I suppose.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:07 PM #29
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If people wanna set their sights on a ****ty place to work for the rest of their life, then that's the outcome they receive.
THANK YOU! Jesus, why the hell would anyone work at McDonalds for 20 years?? Cant even imagine the amount of Coronary Artery Disease this individual has after working, and no dowdily eating, there for 20 years!
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:06 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
...

That means nothing to me. Either governmental intervention is right and the constitution is wrong, or governmental intervention is wrong and the constitution is right. The constitution is a declaration of what we think is right and wrong. The constitution saying something is wrong isn't a reason in itself.
I wasn't approaching it from the angle of right or wrong, but what the government is ALLOWED to do or CHARGED with doing (not capitalized for you, emphasis is for others). Currently, it isn't allowed or charged with rectifying that issue.

I don't think the government should be in the business of legislating morality. I think it should... to quote a philosopher of days gone "Stand a little less between the sun and me."
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Old 12-16-2012, 03:28 PM #31
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Currently, it isn't allowed or charged with rectifying that issue.
Here is what you should have emphasized. "Currently" is irrelevant to me.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:30 AM #32
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I know im late here but silent assassin wow...


Ok so lets say the government gets involved and caps CEO salary
Lets also say the ceo is at max pay
Said ceo is performing well for his company
CEO COULD expend some major effort and help negotiate a huge deal which would largely increase profits for the company, normally this would result in a bonus
CEO has **** to do,and negotiating this deal would take much more time and effort than his normal duties entail

Why the hell would he do it?

Secondly, everyone who makes this argument seems to think that everyone should drive a ferrari wear mink coats and swim in money. It doesnt work that way, if everyone is rich, everyone is poor. Giving the poor more money usually doesnt stop them from being poor (didnt help robin hoods beneficiaries did it)


Third, 'murica happened because the british government stuck their hand in the cookie jar far too many times and much too deeply. People dont like being told what to buy, how to buy it, how to sell it, etc. You seem to like this idea that the government can pass any law it pleases to fix complaints and restrictions against it. So its not illegal "yet" according to you. Lets pass the laws that tie wages top to bottom. Then lets pass laws that says mcdonalds MUST pay x amount of taxes per month, regardless of profits. Then, when theres no money coming in to pay those taxes with (because the poorly paid ceo ran the company into the ground) we can pass a law that requires any and all americans to eat at least one meal a day at mcdonalds.

All that sounds wrong right? But on which grounds? Moral or efficiency? Sounds illegal right, well it is, for now....

Last edited by offthahorse : 12-19-2012 at 12:41 AM. Reason: Please excuse typos, tablet keyboaf
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:13 AM #33
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Why the hell would he do it?
Professional drive. People need to learn that it's not only a "what's in it for me" ... he could do well for the company and workers, and that should be its own reward. The fact that you can't conceive that it is is what's wrong with the current economic order.

But on top of that and perhaps more importantly, it's not a problem if he doesn't do the deal. Some other company can step up and do it, some other CEO who isn't maxed out can get his nut, and this will create more competition and more employment. Win, win, win.

Corporate consolidation (aka movement toward monopoly) is NOT a good thing in the context of capitalism.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:40 AM #34
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Originally Posted by skeeter456 View Post
Ok, so i was just reading a post about a MacDaddy Donalds (McDonald's) worker only makes $8.25 an hour after being there for 20 years, MacDaddy Donalds CEO makes $8.8mil. What would you think if our govt. capped the earnings of a establishment and after that they had to put the rest into their works?
20 years with McD's and only 8.25, someone (reporter) made up some bull**** person and facts. after 20 years said worker is going to be at the lowest a swing manager, and pulling $11-$15 a hour, at the LOWEST.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:41 AM #35
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THANK YOU! Jesus, why the hell would anyone work at McDonalds for 20 years?? Cant even imagine the amount of Coronary Artery Disease this individual has after working, and no dowdily eating, there for 20 years!
Its not so bad, I have a good friend who is a store manager for a McD's, been with them 10 years, and pulls down 55k a year, thats not too bad a job.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:51 AM #36
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If that were down here, he would be well above average wage for the area living like a damn king.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:07 AM #37
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
Professional drive. People need to learn that it's not only a "what's in it for me" ... he could do well for the company and workers, and that should be its own reward. The fact that you can't conceive that it is is what's wrong with the current economic order.
Then why can't the factory line workers just produce 50 more units "for their own reward"? Why should we pay them to do more work and not pay people in the C-suite to do more work?

Also, the "what's in it for me" is part of the human condition, not economic situations specifically.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:14 AM #38
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I'm not sure what thread this belongs in any more, but I was listening to NPR last night. They were having a pledge drive, and I was laughing because I pay taxes so they already get my money. Anyway, someone on one of the shows made the comment that US citizens have 40% more "stuff" than they had in 1960.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:41 AM #39
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I'm not sure what thread this belongs in any more, but I was listening to NPR last night. They were having a pledge drive, and I was laughing because I pay taxes so they already get my money. Anyway, someone on one of the shows made the comment that US citizens have 40% more "stuff" than they had in 1960.
I think this came up in another thread a few months back. But now "poverty" includes a cell phone, Internet connection, Xbox 360 and 1 car instead of two.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:26 PM #40
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Then why can't the factory line workers just produce 50 more units "for their own reward"? Why should we pay them to do more work and not pay people in the C-suite to do more work?
Wages vs salary. And of course the amounts involved are just a little different. Yes, that does make a difference. Which is obvious to anyone with any work experience.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:41 PM #41
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Then why can't the factory line workers just produce 50 more units "for their own reward"? Why should we pay them to do more work and not pay people in the C-suite to do more work?

Also, the "what's in it for me" is part of the human condition, not economic situations specifically.
The Industrial society has done much damage. It has helped incommensurably to spread the disease of career over vocation. The career is representative of this "work for compensation" ethos. Indeed, the average worker is concerned with little more than the accumulation of wealth such that he may either: not work, or dedicate as much of his time to leisure as his fortunes permit.

It is hard to fault the worker for this primarily because society offers him little else to pursue. Society promotes that we each act within our own rational self interest, and in practice this leads to the lowest common denominator interests. Thus the worker producing 50 more units for any other reason than for an increase in compensation is unrealistic.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:09 PM #42
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Wages vs salary. And of course the amounts involved are just a little different. Yes, that does make a difference. Which is obvious to anyone with any work experience.
Wage vs. Salary does not apply. An employee is asked to do more work. He either should be, or shouldn't be compensated for it no matter what level you are, Under both forms of employment you are paid to do X job. Performance outside of that is extra. You are arguing a CEO should do more work "so he feels better" but when this is asked of the line worker that is is absurdity because he gets paid in a different format. And, no, I do not need experience to know that if people work more, they are going to want to be paid more, no matter what level they are.

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The Industrial society has done much damage. It has helped incommensurably to spread the disease of career over vocation. The career is representative of this "work for compensation" ethos. Indeed, the average worker is concerned with little more than the accumulation of wealth such that he may either: not work, or dedicate as much of his time to leisure as his fortunes permit.

It is hard to fault the worker for this primarily because society offers him little else to pursue. Society promotes that we each act within our own rational self interest, and in practice this leads to the lowest common denominator interests. Thus the worker producing 50 more units for any other reason than for an increase in compensation is unrealistic.
So then why are the expectations different for the CEO? Either way more work is being done.
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