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Old 12-04-2012, 02:20 PM #1
JC001
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Question Question about Dwell and Efficiency on the Clone

I read this in another thread, and rather then derail that thread with an off topic question I figured I would post it here. Am I understanding correctly that increasing the dwell on a clone (I have a V1) above 12 will not reduce efficiency but rather only ROF? IE: if I set my dwell to 16 should I expect to have the same efficiency as at 12?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinx18 View Post
I'll clarify what I meant. I meant the owner of the marker can increase efficiency by increasing pressure and lowering dwell with this mod. The gun needs to empty the dump chamber in order to reach a desired velocity. This takes time. The dwell is set to make sure that happens. Too short and the bolt returns before all the air comes out and you lose velocity. Too long and it is wasted time. No real downside as the dump chamber is sealed so it will not continuously vent air and most everyone shoots 12.5 so the drop in max bps is not important. The spring increases bolt speed which is why you can lower your dwell and not lose velocity. It takes 12ms for the stock drivetrain to go forward and dump the air before coming back. With pooty's mod the bolt travels forward faster due to the spring force (overcoming stiction as well a pushing the bolt). That is why you can lower the dwell a couple of milliseconds. You can increase efficiency slightly by increasing pressure. There is a balance between pressure and volume to reach your velocity. You can use less air (volume) at a higher pressure or more air at a lower pressure. Generally higher pressure lower volume gives better efficiency. The faster bolt speed also makes it slightly easier to get a gain this way by releasing the air all at once/quicker than a slower bolt so more air acts directly on the ball although it is very minimal difference.

I think this mod is great for bolt stick (not really efficiency) and I would personally use it at stock dwell. I just don't like the way the mod was sold with "80fps increases". It should be an anti bolt stick mod in my eyes and advertised as such but that's my opinion and every business owner as well as consumer has a right to do what they choose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FallNAngel View Post
This may help with efficiency, though I don't think really for the reason you're stating. Because the bolt is designed to cut off air flow when it's forward (as opposed to continually venting air), lowering your dwell really doesn't do anything. For example, let's assume that 10ms is long enough to dump the entire valve chamber; setting your dwell higher than 10ms doesn't make your gun less efficient, it only lengthens how long it takes the bolt to fully cycle. If you lower it below 10ms, you're not dumping the valve chamber fully, which means some shots you'll dump more than others.

What the spring does do is push the bolt forward faster allowing for the air that's in the valve chamber to hit the ball at once, as opposed to gradually. Because you have a spring and no LPR, you may have to keep the pressure a bit higher (you have to have enough force to push the spring back), so lowering your pressure may or may not work out depending on bolt fit and the spring tension. Next best thing? Lower the dwell. By lowering the dwell you'll be preventing the dump chamber from fully venting, which as I mentioned may affect shot-to-shot consistency. Being that I've seen people say their marker is really consistent shooting +- 8 (ie. 282 - 298), I don't think it'll be a huge deal; I just would be surprised if someone were shooting +- 1 with it, though perhaps I'm entirely wrong here on consistency.

Now if you can use up some of the space in the valve chamber so it has less volume, then the dump chamber would be more likely to empty each shot and you might see better consistency that way.



I can't think of how this would do any appreciable amount of wear / damage to the detents. At the end of the day, the bolt will go forward pushing the detents back. Being that springs "wear" by being used, technically this will cause more wear than an unsprung bolt. Of course, for this to be an issue, you have to be ignoring the fact that you're wearing on the springs every time you shoot and you're probably doing that 2,000+ times every time you play. I'd say detent wear is a non-issue.



I'd say is permanent in that you can't unmachine the parts, but I believe he's milling out excess metal that shouldn't have an effect the function of the marker in any other way.
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Old 12-05-2012, 09:45 AM #2
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Changing the Dwell settings will change things to a point. Not as drastic as let's say a poppet marker.

Lowering the dwell will shortend the time that the valve in the solenoid is open and shortening the stroke of the marker to a point. Shortening the stroke and valve timing you will have to raise the input pressure to compensate for the stroke being shorter and not dumping all the stored air in the fire chamber. So it's a balance of finding the best setting and input pressure that gives you the best results. You can only achieve so much and gain so little by doing this without modifying the stored air in the chamber . Ultimately 1-2ms is about all you can go before you slow the speed of the bolt down to where you see FSDO or even bolt stick.


Raising the dwell will open the valve in the solenoid longer and legthen the stroke but again you can only achieve so much as the stroke will only go so far till the bolt hits the inner keg and all the stored air in the chamber is dumped. 1-2ms is about all you will be able to do to help soften the shot and lower the internal pressure a tad bit. Problem with raising the dwell is the stroke in the bolt is now maxed out and you will start to see excessive ware on the bolt bumper oring. Being that the bumper oring is a 1x15 it dose not take much to damage or break this with the amount of force and bolt speed by raising the dwell.

To answer your question you may see little bit of a drop but not as much as let's say 20 shots not to noticeable. All you are doing is dumping all the stored air at a faster rate.

Lowering the dwell could Chang the ROF at uncapped.

Last edited by SHOOTNPOO : 12-05-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 12-05-2012, 03:23 PM #3
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Thanks for the reply, this was very helpful.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:14 PM #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOOTNPOO View Post
Changing the Dwell settings will change things to a point. Not as drastic as let's say a poppet marker.

Lowering the dwell will shortend the time that the valve in the solenoid is open and shortening the stroke of the marker to a point. Shortening the stroke and valve timing you will have to raise the input pressure to compensate for the stroke being shorter and not dumping all the stored air in the fire chamber. So it's a balance of finding the best setting and input pressure that gives you the best results. You can only achieve so much and gain so little by doing this without modifying the stored air in the chamber . Ultimately 1-2ms is about all you can go before you slow the speed of the bolt down to where you see FSDO or even bolt stick.
Very well said so I will not repeat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SHOOTNPOO View Post
Raising the dwell will open the valve in the solenoid longer and legthen the stroke but again you can only achieve so much as the stroke will only go so far till the bolt hits the inner keg and all the stored air in the chamber is dumped. 1-2ms is about all you will be able to do to help soften the shot and lower the internal pressure a tad bit. Problem with raising the dwell is the stroke in the bolt is now maxed out and you will start to see excessive ware on the bolt bumper oring. Being that the bumper oring is a 1x15 it dose not take much to damage or break this with the amount of force and bolt speed by raising the dwell.

To answer your question you may see little bit of a drop but not as much as let's say 20 shots not to noticeable. All you are doing is dumping all the stored air at a faster rate.

Lowering the dwell could Chang the ROF at uncapped.
I have never seen a change in stroke due to changes in dwell. The bolt will hit the bumper oring except under cases of extremely low dwell. The only difference from "correct" dwell to excessively long dwell being how long the bolt is held against the bolt bumper oring.
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Old 12-05-2012, 04:56 PM #5
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Ok let me refrase that.

The bolt speed will throw the bolt against the bumper harder and faster. Ultimately changing how it wears and hitting the bumper harder. In theary changing the stroke of the bolt but the keg is what will stop this from over stroking.
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:22 PM #6
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i found one the macdevs it doesnt really make a huge difference. I have mine set on 16. Shoots just fine and smooth as butter. I tried 12 but really didnt see any gains. Ive heard most like to keep it set at 14-16
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Old 12-07-2012, 04:53 PM #7
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why not keep it at 12ms... its just as smooth and you are not wasting any more air than you have to. i can understand 14ms if its freezing out.. macdev designed it to be prime at 12
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