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Old 12-04-2012, 12:24 AM #43
Drex17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
the 5.7mm round, and possibly the Five-Seven pistol specifically, would have been a prime target for banning, what with its specific design to have a large ammo capacity of "cop killer" rounds.
If when writing the AWB your oh so ignorantly called "cop killers" were going to be targeted, 7.62x25mm Tokarev and the guns that fire it would have been banned as well. It's from what I've read better at defeating light armor, and a FRACTION of the cost.

TT-33: $220
FN Five-Seven: $1,050

(per round, cents)
7.62x25mm: 20-30
5.7: 40-50

The fact that you buy into the "cop killer" hype is just evidence that you are a sucker for the propaganda the brady campaign spews.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:58 AM #44
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He's so far left he's at the beginning of the stack. what do you expect.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:19 AM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drex17 View Post
If when writing the AWB your oh so ignorantly called "cop killers" were going to be targeted, 7.62x25mm Tokarev and the guns that fire it would have been banned as well. It's from what I've read better at defeating light armor, and a FRACTION of the cost.

TT-33: $220
FN Five-Seven: $1,050

(per round, cents)
7.62x25mm: 20-30
5.7: 40-50

The fact that you buy into the "cop killer" hype is just evidence that you are a sucker for the propaganda the brady campaign spews.
Your analysis of what I wrote is incorrect, colored by your own biases. That is where you and your colleagues in this thread fail. You argue that a law doesn't make sense, then say it wouldn't have done certain things because they don't make sense.

None of what you said changes that the five-seven would be a prime candidate for banning in a political climate favoring the AWB, especially after Fort Hood. The guy pretty much asked for the best weapon to commit mass murder the easiest with, was given it, and went out and did it, just about matching Charles Whitman in 10 minutes.
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Last edited by drgonzo : 12-04-2012 at 01:50 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:40 AM #46
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
Your analysis of what I wrote is incorrect, colored by your own biases.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:37 AM #47
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
The guy pretty much asked for the best weapon to commit mass murder the easiest with, was given it, and went out and did it,
That is in fact, not "pretty much" what he asked for.
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Old 12-04-2012, 04:36 AM #48
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Originally Posted by Drex17 View Post
That is in fact, not "pretty much" what he asked for.
In retrospect, it was. You can be sure that the connection would be made and hammered, in an environment where the AWB existed.

You need to divorce yourself from your biases in order to step back and understand the bigger picture. You would have likely seen legislation taken up within days to add the gun to the AWB list, if not an executive order.

But hey don't take it from me, check out all the gun forums after the event happened.
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Last edited by drgonzo : 12-04-2012 at 04:47 AM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:24 AM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
In retrospect, it was. You can be sure that the connection would be made and hammered, in an environment where the AWB existed.

You need to divorce yourself from your biases in order to step back and understand the bigger picture. You would have likely seen legislation taken up within days to add the gun to the AWB list, if not an executive order.

But hey don't take it from me, check out all the gun forums after the event happened.
Do you feel that such legislation would have been of any benefit?
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:49 AM #50
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I hate this debate, if your goal was to reduce deaths then ban cars, animals, box trucks and planes.
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Old 12-04-2012, 08:57 AM #51
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I hate this debate, if your goal was to reduce deaths then ban cars, animals, box trucks and planes.
That never was the goal for gun bans.

That was the goal for raising the drinking age.

That was the goal for raising the driver's license age.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:17 AM #52
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I posted this somewhere else. I think it would be fun to watch here.


Those deadly archers are just serial killers waiting to happen.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:24 AM #53
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I posted this somewhere else. I think it would be fun to watch here.


Those deadly archers are just serial killers waiting to happen.
Holy **** that's nuts.
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:31 AM #54
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So... I am going to become the Green Arrow (because Hawkeye is a *****).
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Old 12-04-2012, 09:35 AM #55
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So... I am going to become the Green Arrow (because Hawkeye is a *****).
Looks like Lars Anderson may put both of them to shame.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:42 PM #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
In retrospect, it was. You can be sure that the connection would be made and hammered, in an environment where the AWB existed.

You need to divorce yourself from your biases in order to step back and understand the bigger picture. You would have likely seen legislation taken up within days to add the gun to the AWB list, if not an executive order.

But hey don't take it from me, check out all the gun forums after the event happened.
I see the bigger picture, and it's what I was initially commenting on. The fact that those who drive for legislation typically are disconnected from reality. (the fact that the FN gets labelled as a dangerous "cop killer" that must be taken of the streets is a prime example)


in other news, check out my sweet concealable assault weapon

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Last edited by Drex17 : 12-04-2012 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:09 PM #57
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I see the bigger picture, and it's what I was initially commenting on. The fact that those who drive for legislation typically are disconnected from reality. (the fact that the FN gets labelled as a dangerous "cop killer" that must be taken of the streets is a prime example)
Again, I am not a gun expert by any standard, so correct me if I am wrong but:

Sales of the Five-seven were originally restricted by FN to military and law enforcement customers, but since 2004, the pistol has also been offered to civilian shooters. The Five-seven is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Canada, France, Greece, India, Poland, Spain, and the United States.[22] In the United States, the Five-seven is in use with numerous law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.

It seems as if the intent of this weapon is designed to be pretty hard core. That is not to say that it should or shouldn't be legal. But why do you feel the legislation to include this gun (designed for military/law enforcement) is "disconnected from reality" when the intention of the legislation was to prevent weapons like this? Like the legislation or not, it seems to me at least that this falls under the type of guns that the legislators were against.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:13 PM #58
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So many guns not covered in the AWB were developed by the military you'd have a hard time making that argument stick.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:16 PM #59
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So many guns not covered in the AWB were developed by the military you'd have a hard time making that argument stick.
Was the intention of the legislation not to target these types of weapons though? (that's a serious question)
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:16 PM #60
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For instance, the Beretta 9mm M9 Pistol.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:25 PM #61
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Was the intention of the legislation not to target these types of weapons though? (that's a serious question)
Not really, its purpose was:

Quote:
To make unlawful the transfer or possession of assault weapons.
More of a power grab that was tossed into a larger bill about police/prison funding and statues on hate/gang/sex crime and things of that nature. Not to prevent anyone from having access to deadly weapons because if you read it, it was clearly a novice who doesn't know much about guns.
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:26 PM #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Again, I am not a gun expert by any standard, so correct me if I am wrong but:

Sales of the Five-seven were originally restricted by FN to military and law enforcement customers, but since 2004, the pistol has also been offered to civilian shooters. The Five-seven is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Canada, France, Greece, India, Poland, Spain, and the United States.[22] In the United States, the Five-seven is in use with numerous law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.

It seems as if the intent of this weapon is designed to be pretty hard core. That is not to say that it should or shouldn't be legal. But why do you feel the legislation to include this gun (designed for military/law enforcement) is "disconnected from reality" when the intention of the legislation was to prevent weapons like this? Like the legislation or not, it seems to me at least that this falls under the type of guns that the legislators were against.
Most firearms are designed to be "pretty hardcore", however the particular nastyness of the 5.7 comes from its use with pretty hot loaded AP rounds, which isn't imported to the US. A huge percentage of popular semi-automatic handguns were designed with LEO/MIL in mind. Heck, the relatively new and quite popular Smith & Wesson M&P handguns have such a designation right in its name (betcha can guess what M&P stands for)

Glocks, beretta 92s, CZ75, M&P, 1911's, Browning Hi-Power, etc.....
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Old 12-04-2012, 03:26 PM #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post

You need to divorce yourself from your biases in order to step back and understand the bigger picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Again, I am not a gun expert by any standard, so correct me if I am wrong but:

Sales of the Five-seven were originally restricted by FN to military and law enforcement customers, but since 2004, the pistol has also been offered to civilian shooters. The Five-seven is currently in service with military and police forces in over 40 nations, such as Canada, France, Greece, India, Poland, Spain, and the United States.[22] In the United States, the Five-seven is in use with numerous law enforcement agencies, including the U.S. Secret Service.
The 5.7 really is a ****ty gun. I don't see the 'it was design for the military' to be any more relevant than it being design for everybody. One gun doesn't have more effective killing power in the hands of someone that trains and knows how to use it. It's like that guy shooting those arrows, he doesn't have a compound bow many use for hunting large game.
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