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Old 12-03-2012, 03:52 PM #22
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Mine eyes have been keen on the Walther P22.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:52 PM #23
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Originally Posted by Tafari Makonnen View Post
No, there were legal under the ban but the larger magazines would have been prohibited for sale if they were new manufacture. Magazines already in the country/manufactured before the ban went into effect were readily available, though more expensive than before. The FN pistol didn't exist at the time of the ban, but would have been legal. Additionally, any weapon possessed before the ban could be sold and have banned features. They were more expensive than ban compliant rifles (pre-ban/port-ban guns). It is similar to the hugely inflated prices in the transferable machine gun market but not as bad.
Interesting logic about the FN, in an environment where the AWB still existed, the 5.7mm round, and possibly the Five-Seven pistol specifically, would have been a prime target for banning, what with its specific design to have a large ammo capacity of "cop killer" rounds.

But most importantly, since it's new, there would be no pre-ban unrestricted magazines available. So there is 100% certainty that the magazines would have been covered by the AWB.
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Old 12-03-2012, 03:54 PM #24
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What makes you think smaller magazines would make a difference?
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:08 PM #25
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Fort Hood:
FN Five-seven pistol
Smith & Wesson .357
Magnum revolver

Arizona:
9mm Glock model 19 pistol

To be clear, none of those weapons fall under the AWB?

**I am not saying that you are wrong or implying that they should be. I am simply seeking clarification.
I posted the criteria. All those X's I put represent how each firearm failed to meet the specified requirements to be considered illegal under the AWB.

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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
Interesting logic about the FN, in an environment where the AWB still existed, the 5.7mm round, and possibly the Five-Seven pistol specifically, would have been a prime target for banning, what with its specific design to have a large ammo capacity of "cop killer" rounds.

But most importantly, since it's new, there would be no pre-ban unrestricted magazines available. So there is 100% certainty that the magazines would have been covered by the AWB.
Keep trying to pull some **** out of your *** to make a 5.7 fall under the AWB requirements. You can try, but it won't work.

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What makes you think smaller magazines would make a difference?
He's delusional.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:13 PM #26
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Originally Posted by F1VENOM View Post
What makes you think smaller magazines would make a difference?
Never said anything about that either way, though in the instance of the Arizona shooter, he was taken down and subdued while reloading. And there's no shortage of other stories of shootings ending for one reason or another during reloads. There's a reason modern general combat weapons are designed to have high ammunition capacity.

Generally though, in the unfortunately common example of the mentally unstable shooter (clinical or not), being forced to reload after a few shots is preferable to having 30 rounds on tap once the shooting starts. In a highly stressed, mentally deranged state, all this talk about practice reloading in 2 seconds is so much bs. There is a greater chance the shooter fumbles the mag, mis-operates the weapon, has failure to feed, has a mindset change, etc. Regardless the natural break in shooting gives an opportunity for people to approach.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:19 PM #27
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Never said anything about that either way, though in the instance of the Arizona shooter, he was taken down and subdued while reloading. And there's no shortage of other stories of shootings ending for one reason or another during reloads. There's a reason modern general combat weapons are designed to have high ammunition capacity.

Generally though, in the unfortunately common example of the mentally unstable shooter (clinical or not), being forced to reload after a few shots is preferable to having 30 rounds on tap once the shooting starts. In a highly stressed, mentally deranged state, all this talk about practice reloading in 2 seconds is so much bs. There is a greater chance the shooter fumbles the mag, mis-operates the weapon, has failure to feed, has a mindset change, etc. Regardless the natural break in shooting gives an opportunity for people to approach.
Large capacity magazines are easy to make and obtain even if banned.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:34 PM #28
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
Interesting logic about the FN, in an environment where the AWB still existed, the 5.7mm round, and possibly the Five-Seven pistol specifically, would have been a prime target for banning, what with its specific design to have a large ammo capacity of "cop killer" rounds.

But most importantly, since it's new, there would be no pre-ban unrestricted magazines available. So there is 100% certainty that the magazines would have been covered by the AWB.
The pistol would not have been banned based on the text of the law in place, unless the gun was listed specifically. I cannot attest as to what legislators may or may not have done at the time. Additionally, the type of pistol used in Fort Hood would not have mattered, it could have been any other handgun and the result would have been the same. In fact, a 9x19mm handgun would have been worse, considering the poor terminal performance of the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

The ammunition it uses is for the most part worse than that of of other common pistol. The civilian legal 5.7x27mm ammunition is on par with .22 magnum in terms of terminal ballistics, and it is completely ineffective against body armor. The armor piercing ammunition for the pistol is regulated just like any other armor piercing handgun ammunition, which exists for 9x19mm, .40 S&W, .38 special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, and just about any other commonly used service handgun cartridge. It is restricted to law enforcement sale as is all armor piercing handgun ammunition. The only benefit of the cartridge is its good performance against penetrating armor with the correct ammunition (and when it DOES defeat armor it imparts relatively little damage due to its small diameter and non-fragmenting qualities), and it is no better than other AP handgun ammunition at typical handgun distances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post
Never said anything about that either way, though in the instance of the Arizona shooter, he was taken down and subdued while reloading. And there's no shortage of other stories of shootings ending for one reason or another during reloads. There's a reason modern general combat weapons are designed to have high ammunition capacity.

Generally though, in the unfortunately common example of the mentally unstable shooter (clinical or not), being forced to reload after a few shots is preferable to having 30 rounds on tap once the shooting starts. In a highly stressed, mentally deranged state, all this talk about practice reloading in 2 seconds is so much bs. There is a greater chance the shooter fumbles the mag, mis-operates the weapon, has failure to feed, has a mindset change, etc. Regardless the natural break in shooting gives an opportunity for people to approach.
Again, reduction in available magazine capacity, if you were somehow able to make all of the magazines in circulation disappear, would still do little to the number of people killed every year by firearms. There is the potential for the number of people show in these high profile mass shootings to be reduced, but they are so infrequent that the end result will be negligible. You are not solving any problems.

Why should the behavior of the mentally deranged dictate what is available to the general public?
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Last edited by Tafari Makonnen : 12-03-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 04:51 PM #29
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Originally Posted by Tafari Makonnen View Post
The pistol would not have been banned based on the text of the law in place, unless the gun was listed specifically. I cannot attest as to what legislators may or may not have done at the time. Additionally, the type of pistol used in Fort Hood would not have mattered, it could have been any other handgun and the result would have been the same. In fact, a 9x19mm handgun would have been worse, considering the poor terminal performance of the 5.7x28mm cartridge.

The ammunition it uses is for the most part worse than that of of other common pistol. The civilian legal 5.7x27mm ammunition is on par with .22 magnum in terms of terminal ballistics, and it is completely ineffective against body armor. The armor piercing ammunition for the pistol is regulated just like any other armor piercing handgun ammunition, which exists for 9x19mm, .40 S&W, .38 special, .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, and just about any other commonly used service handgun cartridge. It is restricted to law enforcement sale as is all armor piercing handgun ammunition. The only benefit of the cartridge is its good performance against penetrating armor with the correct ammunition (and when it DOES defeat armor it imparts relatively little damage due to its small diameter and non-fragmenting qualities), and it is no better than other AP handgun ammunition at typical handgun distances.

Again, reduction in available magazine capacity, if you were somehow able to make all of the magazines in circulation disappear, would still do little to the number of people killed every year by firearms. There is the potential for the number of people show in these high profile mass shootings to be reduced, but they are so infrequent that the end result will be negligible. You are not solving any problems.
Nice observations, but irrelevant.

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Why should the behavior of the mentally deranged dictate what is available to the general public?
Because mentally deranged people are the general public too, pretty obvious. Mental illness is pretty common, more common than you probably think.
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Old 12-03-2012, 05:44 PM #30
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Originally Posted by TheSilentAssassin View Post
Fort Hood:
FN Five-seven pistol
Smith & Wesson .357
Magnum revolver

Arizona:
9mm Glock model 19 pistol

To be clear, none of those weapons fall under the AWB?

**I am not saying that you are wrong or implying that they should be. I am simply seeking clarification.
None of those weapons fall under the AWB. The magazines used however are a different story.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:38 PM #31
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Nice observations, but irrelevant.



Because mentally deranged people are the general public too, pretty obvious. Mental illness is pretty common, more common than you probably think.
So the fact that the handgun in question probably wouldn't have been banned, and even if it were would not have led to a less lethal attack had he chosen an alternative, is not relevant?
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:52 PM #32
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So the fact that the handgun in question probably wouldn't have been banned, and even if it were would not have led to a less lethal attack had he chosen an alternative, is not relevant?
Not at all. I said equipment that was covered by the AWB was used in that shooting and it was. You can talk all around it, but it doesn't change that what I said was right and continues to be right. Argue all you like about what effect it would have had, but this equipment was used for these incidents.
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Last edited by drgonzo : 12-03-2012 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:54 PM #33
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Nice observations, but irrelevant.



Because mentally deranged people are the general public too, pretty obvious. Mental illness is pretty common, more common than you probably think.
People drive drunk all the time. Why we let ANYONE drive is beyond me. I say if one person can't be trusted, no one should!
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:54 PM #34
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Can you not understand that the equipment being on the list or not has not bearing on the outcome of the event?
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Old 12-03-2012, 07:57 PM #35
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Can you not understand that the equipment being on the list or not has not bearing on the outcome of the event?
Can you not understand the outcome of the event is irrelevant to whether the item was in fact covered by the AWB?
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:08 PM #36
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People drive drunk all the time. Why we let ANYONE drive is beyond me. I say if one person can't be trusted, no one should!

shhhhh, you're making too much sense!
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:10 PM #37
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Can you not understand the outcome of the event is irrelevant to whether the item was in fact covered by the AWB?
I think spending some time in the real U.S. would do you some good to see just how many firearms are currently in circulation, there's enough to where a new ban wouldn't do much to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:14 PM #38
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5.7 was a failure. Especially after FN refused to sell full power ammo to non-law enforcement. Oh and it had some miserable terminal ballistics. It was nice for plinking. If you happened to have 1200+ to spend on a plinking gun and liked to pay five times as much for ammo.

Two important things about the AWB. First, it was written by people who knew nothing about guns. They simply chose things that looked scary. Second, it failed. Since it's repeal, gun sales have gone up 60%. By that logic, and supporters of the AWB, violent crime should have seen a similar increase. It went down 14%.

Its not the guns or even the availablity of guns. It's the culture in the US where people are taught that crime is acceptable and even applauds it. Until parents take responsibility for raising their children, this problem is going to continue.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:15 PM #39
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Nice observations, but irrelevant.



Because mentally deranged people are the general public too, pretty obvious. Mental illness is pretty common, more common than you probably think.
In that case, why should we do anything any of out deranged law makers say is law? Or do anything any of our deranged law enforcers say to do?
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:18 PM #40
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Can you not understand the outcome of the event is irrelevant to whether the item was in fact covered by the AWB?
So you have a non-point then? You are making an assertion that doesn't matter?
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:39 PM #41
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So you have a non-point then? You are making an assertion that doesn't matter?
No, the assertion addresses the topic(s) being discussed. Everything that has followed by way of knee-jerk defense has been the non-point.

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In that case, why should we do anything any of out deranged law makers say is law? Or do anything any of our deranged law enforcers say to do?
I'm not the one saying that mentally ill or deranged people have no relevance to public affairs.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:17 PM #42
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5.7 was a failure. Especially after FN refused to sell full power ammo to non-law enforcement. Oh and it had some miserable terminal ballistics. It was nice for plinking. If you happened to have 1200+ to spend on a plinking gun and liked to pay five times as much for ammo.
I like how they'll blow up when they come out of battery.
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