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Old 11-29-2012, 05:39 PM #22
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I ran across a TED video a while back about how we should be expecting population to level off, not increase. How the previous models were wrong. If I ever figure this tablet out, I might post like I do on my laptop and embed the video in this thread.
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:55 PM #23
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I ran across a TED video a while back about how we should be expecting population to level off, not increase. How the previous models were wrong. If I ever figure this tablet out, I might post like I do on my laptop and embed the video in this thread.
Was it this?
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Old 11-29-2012, 05:56 PM #24
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Innovation in agriculture can only carry us so far in the near future. I'm all for it, but I seriously doubt any combination of innovation in several fields will sufficiently address the problems we are facing.

The argument blueshifty is making is: "don't worry bro, innovation will always outpace our problems", which is just ****ing stupid.
I think we are agreeing.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:12 PM #25
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Same presentation, different venue.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:29 PM #26
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It's not about that... it is about the evolution of ideas. We don't have to find a permanent solution, we just have to find one that gets us over the near to mid-term problems. Spiral development is an evolution. To look for a 100% solution is utopian an will never be implemented. Small changes or trials get the ball rolling.
Evolution of ideas....does that involve wands and fairy dust? Double Double Toil and Trouble, save industry from becoming Rubble.

The best course of action is to learn how to live with the post-industrial future now. Lower the casualties and lower the consumption rate of petroleum.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:53 PM #27
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I think we are agreeing.
That wasn't the point I was making which was later clarified.

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Evolution of ideas....does that involve wands and fairy dust? Double Double Toil and Trouble, save industry from becoming Rubble.

The best course of action is to learn how to live with the post-industrial future now. Lower the casualties and lower the consumption rate of petroleum.
Evolution of ideas is just a way of saying that we don't just have an epiphany and save the world, but rather build on other ideas. So you mock me, then say the exact same thing.

I may agree with the second part if you'd paint a picture of what the "post-industrial world" looks like. Also, lowering the consumption rate of petroleum does very little if the alternate source of energy isn't cleaner.


Most of you guys live with these grandiose ideas of what could be, but I actually work in a R&D environment. I have worked with MIT, JHU and other very prestigious organizations and these guys are think tanks, but can't grasp the concept that sometimes 80% is good enough. You have to go to market at some point or your project will fail. Innovation is also abundant when it is sufficiently funded. The main point I am trying to make is that the solutions that are right for the world are likely not profitable and are unlikely to be brought to fruition because of that. TED has tons of creative ideas about alternate energy, but until someone can get rich off it then it'll die as just an idea.
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Old 11-29-2012, 09:58 PM #28
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That wasn't the point I was making which was later clarified.
I was referring to this part "Innovation in agriculture can only carry us so far in the near future. I'm all for it, but I seriously doubt any combination of innovation in several fields will sufficiently address the problems we are facing." Sorry should have been more clear.

My point has remained the same from the beginning. We are in a bad place. Innovation and limitation/reduction are both necessary for any thought of sustainability.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:04 PM #29
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My point has remained the same from the beginning. We are in a bad place. Innovation and limitation/reduction are both necessary for any thought of sustainability.
No worries. I also think you are spot on...
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:13 PM #30
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Evolution of ideas is just a way of saying that we don't just have an epiphany and save the world, but rather build on other ideas. So you mock me, then say the exact same thing.

I may agree with the second part if you'd paint a picture of what the "post-industrial world" looks like. Also, lowering the consumption rate of petroleum does very little if the alternate source of energy isn't cleaner.


Most of you guys live with these grandiose ideas of what could be, but I actually work in a R&D environment. I have worked with MIT, JHU and other very prestigious organizations and these guys are think tanks, but can't grasp the concept that sometimes 80% is good enough. You have to go to market at some point or your project will fail. Innovation is also abundant when it is sufficiently funded. The main point I am trying to make is that the solutions that are right for the world are likely not profitable and are unlikely to be brought to fruition because of that. TED has tons of creative ideas about alternate energy, but until someone can get rich off it then it'll die as just an idea.
There is no "saving" the world, if maintaining the status quo is the goal, we overshot that one by a few decades. Climate change is the very least of my concerns.

Post industrial society looks a lot like...hmmm. what human society was like before. Only we will be using "green" technology to maintain a standard of living without the excesses provided to us by industrial society. Solar is an incredibly viable answer to heating and powering homesteads. Nuclear technology will fall to the wayside, unmaintained with out the petroleum reserves required to maintain it. Wind power will play a large role, as will hydro electric. The exact face of the whole is hard to predict. Suffice it to say, there won't be anyone getting their kicks on route 66.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:22 PM #31
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Nearly all those forms of power generation require massive use of copper, yet another dwindling resource. With the next phase if we go too extreme then we uproot the existing infrastructure at huge cost impacts. Change will be gradual.
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Old 11-29-2012, 10:26 PM #32
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Nearly all those forms of power generation require massive use of copper, yet another dwindling resource. With the next phase if we go too extreme then we uproot the existing infrastructure at huge cost impacts. Change will be gradual.
I've said before that it will be a slow descent. We desperately need to learn conservation. This is impossible with theories off "free markets" "Infinite Growth" and other such nonsensicals.
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Old 11-30-2012, 06:54 AM #33
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Everyone here realizes that we have modern industrial society to thank for the plummeting birth rates in the developed world, right? I don't agree with the excesses of modern society, but the best method to decrease global population is to help the third world nations join us in the first world.

To do this we need clean energy, and more resources to go around. For energy I would propose a big idea project like space based solar power to provide massive amounts of clean energy.

For resources, I would propose a mandatory recycling plan for waste. All discarded items would be re-processed instead of rotting or rusting in a dump. If a material it can't be recycled then it needs to be heavily regulated.

I'm aware these ideas would be costly and probably unpopular, but if we expect to maintain our standard of living it will be necessary to take drastic measures. Otherwise the future could look 'post industrial' and we'll all be living in Amish country with solar powered buggies.
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:14 AM #34
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I've said before that it will be a slow descent. We desperately need to learn conservation. This is impossible with theories off "free markets" "Infinite Growth" and other such nonsensicals.
We are in agreement.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:42 AM #35
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I would propose a big idea project like space based solar power to provide massive amounts of clean energy.
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Old 11-30-2012, 08:52 AM #36
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You can be skeptical, I'll remain optimistic.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:01 AM #37
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ftfy.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:09 AM #38
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Clearly no one is a fan of space based power. Anyone care to explain why?
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:28 AM #39
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Clearly no one is a fan of space based power. Anyone care to explain why?
You'd need to build it near mercury to get the particle concentration required to make such a project remotely worthwhile.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:33 AM #40
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You'd need to build it near mercury to get the particle concentration required to make such a project remotely worthwhile.
Worthwhile, or profitable?
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:55 AM #41
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Worthwhile, or profitable?
The word I chose, worthwhile.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:03 AM #42
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Either way, its just an idea on how to move forward and preserve our way of life. I'm of the opinion that something will come along in place of oil to move the gears of industrial society. Whether its space based solar, thorium reactors or some yet unknown technology, our standard of living isn't going anywhere without a fight.
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