Cup Seal Leak

MOTORHEAD · 11-28-2012, 10:55 AM

Invasion with updated spring is leaking from the cup seal. Tried new orings, as well as putting teflon into the divot to raise the orings a bit. It was a very slight leak until yesterday when it got worse and began to effect performance.

The rim where the valve seals looks fine.

I am suspicious that it may be what appear to be impressions in the body where the orings sit. I will get a picture up soon.

Even when the leak was slight, if I did not have teflon as well loctite on the set screw it would leak heavily from there.

MstrKey · 11-28-2012, 11:57 AM

Hmmm well it obviously worked before. You'll need to change the orings out even if they look fine. Here is what I do with ALL of my poppet guns using a removable valve/valve tube.

-Remove the valve.

-Replace orings with new ones that are slightly larger than suggested. Sometimes switching from metric to standard is enough to create a tighter than normal seal. Sometimes you just need to search orings of the proper size for one that's tighter, do the best you can.

-Coat the valve orings in dow 55 grease.

-Replace in gun and let it sit 24 hours before airing up. Let the Dow55 swell them up into place.

Usually this fixes any and all valve leaks in my guns forever!

Another thing to remember....sometimes if you crank the valve's set screw too tight it can cause the valve body to pull off center in the gun body, which itself can cause leaks. You can check this yourself by looking at the valve as you tighten the set screw. You'll see it move off center if you tighten too tight. If this happens then just use some blue loctite on the set screw and put it in barely snug. All it really does it prevent the valve from moving back and forth in the body, so as long as the screw is in fully, it will do it's job.

OSU Sam · 11-28-2012, 12:32 PM

This guy knows what he's talking about. I'm book marking this.

MOTORHEAD · 11-28-2012, 04:58 PM

Awesome! Great stuff Mstrkey! It very well may be the set screw

MU WISCOBALLER · 11-28-2012, 07:15 PM

Jackson, you have more problems with your alien than I do with my vapor!

griffan2 · 11-28-2012, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MstrKey

-Coat the valve orings in dow 55 grease.

this^ let the orings soak in dow 55 for a day then plug em in with a tiny layer of 55 on em. magical

MstrKey · 11-28-2012, 09:14 PM

After many years of owning older intimidators, you learn every trick in the book lol. Hopefully it helps.

firefoxx04 · 11-28-2012, 10:09 PM

i dont know what the fuss is about valve orings (outer orings) never had a problem. removed my indys for the first time a while ago. cleaned them up and reistall. greased with lurker lube. they are not a wear part.. not sure how they would start leaking unless you blasted them with a bunch of air.

if the leak got worse over time, i could suspect the set screw or the cupseal/poppet.

I tighten my valve set screw down pretty good. If you dont want to crank on it, use blue locktight on it. if it walks out on you over time, it could damage the valve.

MstrKey · 11-29-2012, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firefoxx04

i dont know what the fuss is about valve orings (outer orings) never had a problem. removed my indys for the first time a while ago. cleaned them up and reistall. greased with lurker lube. they are not a wear part.. not sure how they would start leaking unless you blasted them with a bunch of air.

if the leak got worse over time, i could suspect the set screw or the cupseal/poppet.

I tighten my valve set screw down pretty good. If you dont want to crank on it, use blue locktight on it. if it walks out on you over time, it could damage the valve.

Remember the Invasion is made in china or Tailand or something. Your indy is made in the USA. So it could be just the tolerances are off a bit....or the anno is thin. You never know. We'll see what happens when he tries all that out.

firefoxx04 · 11-29-2012, 07:45 PM

where where the fusion 7, 8 and ICD guns made ?

i sure hope this isnt a tollorance problem, jack learned that lession with the 08 indy

MstrKey · 11-29-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firefoxx04

where where the fusion 7, 8 and ICD guns made ?

i sure hope this isnt a tollorance problem, jack learned that lession with the 08 indy

You aren't saying the fusions and ICD guns didn't have tolerance issues are you?

That reminds me I have an old bushy and an old freestyle in two bags I found the other day lol.

The only way to order stuff from those places and not ever have any issues is to order a lot of extra and toss a lot in the recycle can......which I'm pretty sure a lot of companies do. Especially if you get an anno flaw.........that extra thousandth of an inch can kill you if you're already off a couple thou on the milling. Either way I'm sure it will be worked out just fine.

firefoxx04 · 11-29-2012, 10:16 PM

my three fusions have never leaked from the valve outer orings

the fx on the other hand, that should not be called a fusion. that thing is a tolerance joke!

MstrKey · 11-30-2012, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firefoxx04

my three fusions have never leaked from the valve outer orings

the fx on the other hand, that should not be called a fusion. that thing is a tolerance joke!

Dp guns are like that. Either you get one that's fine, or you get one that isn't lol. I never tried one of the FX guns though. With all that fancy milling I imagine it could open up a whole can of worms on tolerances. I've had dye guns with bad parts, my first ego had a defective valve. Intimidators back in the day were notorious for parts that didn't fit. That's what good customer service is for I suppose.

firefoxx04 · 11-30-2012, 11:10 PM

the old fusions were straight, the fx is garbage. like, its bad.

MstrKey · 12-01-2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by firefoxx04

the old fusions were straight, the fx is garbage. like, its bad.

Weird. Oh well what can you do. Probably why there are a lot more new ones for sale.

MOTORHEAD · 12-15-2012, 12:10 AM

Beyond upset with this invasion. Tried everything mentioned with no luck. Either it leaks heavily from the cup set screw or lightly from the air path from the cup to the bolt in the breech.

Have tried:

Multiple new orings on the cup (various sizes and soaked in dow55)
Not over tightening set screw
Cleaned and checked seal between cup seal and body.

Really unsure what else could be causing this? Faulty spring? Faulty cup seal/body?

Jack, what's your charge per hour if I were to send it out to you?

MstrKey · 12-15-2012, 01:44 AM

Sounds like it has to be a faulty cup seal then. It happens. Usually after it happens there's no way to fix it other than to replace it.

It can happen when you get a piece of dirt in there that scores the plastic sealing face.

It can happen if you drop the poppet down into the valve when putting the gun together......it nicks the sealing face of the metal and air can leak through.

It can happen if the poppet comes unscrewed from he plastic cup seal causing it to sit crooked, which usually ruins the threading in the plastic cup seal.

I'm not sure what you mean by multiple orings on the cup? I'm assuming you meant the valve? If you haven't changed valve orings then that could be it. The cup seal(white plastic) screws on the poppet. The poppet goes through the valve. The valve sits inside the gun body.

firefoxx04 · 12-15-2012, 11:09 AM

im curious, if you pull the valve out, can you feel a nick on the cupseal/valve? I think Jack goes into detail about this in the manual.

One thing that bothers me is how is it leaking out of the set screw?

firefoxx04 · 12-15-2012, 11:10 AM

Jack Rice · 12-15-2012, 01:17 PM

Teflon isn't reliable. If you put metric 14 by 2 mm O-Ring on Cup seal it I'm thinking that it will seal without a problem. Buy a couple in case you cut one. If it is leaking out the set screw, it's the O-Rings
If it's not leaking out the set screw then some dirt got in the air and the cup seal isn't sealing.
As of yet I have never had a gun that the tolerances caused a problem. The guns are very reliable - try the metric O-Rings I'm thinking you will be fine.

MstrKey · 12-15-2012, 02:10 PM

I was thinking if it comes out the set screw it must be orings because the alien valve doesn't have an open set screw port(the screw slot is sealed)............I just remembered that. So the air can't get from inside the valve out the set screw.

An oring leak can get down the barrel however..........because it only needs to pass the front oring to get to the breech port.

So........it MUST be the orings. Specifically the front one but change both anyway to keep everything centered. I'd still put some dow 55 on it.

A lot of times you may change an oring out but mix up the metric/standard sizes so it doesn't work. I've done that many times since my parts box has so many orings from so many different guns. lol.