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Old 11-24-2012, 05:55 PM #1
Word?
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at instalation lurker bolt +/- 20 fps

New lurker bolt

Lightly lubed with hater sauce
1st oring on guide swapped out
Virtue redefined dwell 16, return dwell 19

To get the gun over 260fps the bottom reg is at 200+

I followed the directions closely but I'm slowly losing my mind.

Also what the hell is that plastic like oring cut in half included?
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Old 11-24-2012, 06:35 PM #2
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You need to swap out the oring on the spacer with a tank oring - it's having trouble to get off the spacer with whatever your friction setup is which is why

1. your pressure is high

and 2. it's inconsistent.

both are symptoms of the same issue.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:34 PM #3
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The O-ring on the outside of the spacer, correct? Not the one that connects it to the guide on the inside.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:54 PM #4
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Yep, exactly. That's the one the bolt feels when it's only got very low force so it's the most sensitive.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:32 PM #5
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OK

Tried an actual tank oring and an oring of the same size, and now it just blends.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:38 PM #6
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Also, I was mistaken the front guide oring I switched back to stock. Only because the one provided made the fit so tight it required an unusual amount of force to cycle the bolt in my hands.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:42 PM #7
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That was probably the problem then
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:45 PM #8
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No,

The oring that I've had in the gun is the stock one, sorry. I never fired the gun with the provided oring because of that.

I was correcting myself because the first post says I used the oring provided.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:07 PM #9
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Also, if friction is the issue the bolt was sticking a lot before I tuned up the abs. And the bolt seems to catch the orings more so in the firing position than at rest, dunno it's weird.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:02 PM #10
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OK so,

I thought if I took off one guide oring maybe it would cut down on the friction, and it did. Once I gassed it up and set the regs up, I noticed the problem was almost gone. So I tried taking 2 and 3 off. 2 resulted in odd consistency problems and 3 gave me almost 0 fps. So back to one off it is, unfortunately I'm nowhere near a chrono now, so I have to wait until the next time.

Wut.
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Old 11-25-2012, 08:40 AM #11
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I had the EXACT same issue with my lurker bolt. I also tried that tank o ring bull**** to no avail as well. I personally finally gave up on it, returned the gun back to stock and am enjoying it again.

Just as the local airsmith said, empire paid an engineer to design the best possible bolt for that gun. Do you really think that some guy that didn't develop the gun can make a better bolt than the original design? Absolutely not, he cannot even perfect his own design, hence some people having to put a tank o ring on spacer, some having to use the bigger o ring, some having to use stock.
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Old 11-25-2012, 09:38 AM #12
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Just as the local airsmith said, empire paid an engineer to design the best possible bolt for that gun. Do you really think that some guy that didn't develop the gun can make a better bolt than the original design? Absolutely not, he cannot even perfect his own design, hence some people having to put a tank o ring on spacer, some having to use the bigger o ring, some having to use stock.
Take it easy, trollface.

I, along with many other people have had great success using Lurker's bolt in my Axe. Just because a few people are having problems doesn't mean the design is flawed. Every individual gun gets broken in differently, hence why everyone's optimal performance settings will eventually end up being different. It's just the nature of air being held in check by rubber o-rings.

OP: Take your gun back to the recommended settings outlined in Lurker's Eigenbolt manual. Use the tuning guide stickied at the top of this forum to tune your gun. From what you've posted, I can already see your dwell is WAY too high (stock dwell is 7ms) and your pressure is as well, no Axe should need to run higher than 200PSI.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:04 AM #13
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Stock settings are dwell-14 return dwell-18.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:15 AM #14
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Axe stock board settings are dwell 7. Call Kee, they'll tell you the same.
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Old 11-25-2012, 11:19 AM #15
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I have a virtue redefined board.


Read the first post.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:17 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexisme View Post
Just as the local airsmith said, empire paid an engineer to design the best possible bolt for that gun. Do you really think that some guy that didn't develop the gun can make a better bolt than the original design? Absolutely not, he cannot even perfect his own design, hence some people having to put a tank o ring on spacer, some having to use the bigger o ring, some having to use stock.
I just want to respond to this reasonably.

Stock manufacturers have different constraints than aftermarket manufacturers. Stock manufacturers don't have the luxury of releasing a bolt that requires more attention on the part of the user with regard to friction. It has to work out of the box EVERY TIME, with minimal care, in the dirt, without lube, for hundreds of thousands of cycles.

Aftermarket manufacturers already know that people care about the performance of their gun being at the absolute apex possible. That's how I design my products. I've always acknowledged there's a trade off present. Lighter rams for intimidators require more tuning than heavy ones, but the payoff is greater in terms of shot quality.

DM Eigenrings require a minimized dwell to take full advantage of their efficiency boost. Shocker and Geo and gen4 intimidator valving systems I've developed, or even the lighter marq spring I take, all of these have a narrower range of settings than a stock part to make them function properly.

The vast majority of the issues people have with the Eigenbolt on the axe are related to the spacer friction, because friction has essentially a 4 times larger effect in that part of the stroke, because the bolt force has been cut into 1/4 the stock value. This is why the Eigenbolt is the softest bolt on paint and the lowest kick bolt available. The trade off is that when the friction of your bolt guide or bolt-to-body is high, it manifests itself much more strongly than with other bolts.

This is generally an easy fix, and maybe it speaks to a need on my part to re-evaluate the choice of material o-rings I'm sending with, or at least include more to allow for easier tuning. I've played with lots of different values for o-ring crush on that part, without losing seal since that's the basis of the 2 stage operation, and I am confident in saying as a hard part it's not going to get much better. O-rings have around .003" of variance all on their own - it's enough to affect friction significantly. Shoot, ask the Shocker guys about that, huge difference when hand fitting orings in those guns.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:21 PM #17
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I have a virtue redefined board.
Read the first post.
Doesn't matter. Dwell is Dwell. An aftermarket board doesn't change the time your solenoid needs to stay open for optimal shot force. If your STOCK solenoid is staying open for 16ms as opposed to 7ms, you're releasing over double the amount of force needed.

Whatever, I'm done here. It's your gun, do what you want.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:02 PM #18
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OK so

I'm $60 deep into tuning this bolt over the chrono. And no stock dwell, virtue or kee is solving the issue. Today the gun was a bit more consistent but, it still took the bottom line reg to be at 200psi to break 260fps.
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Old 11-25-2012, 02:56 PM #19
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My last guess is this machining near the lip. The bolt pictured in the manual, and website did not have this.

http://imgur.com/ffp6P.jpg

What do you think lurker?
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Old 11-25-2012, 04:20 PM #20
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Which lip are you referring to? Sorry I can't make out what you mean. Replying to pm now
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:23 AM #21
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My last guess is this machining near the lip. The bolt pictured in the manual, and website did not have this.

http://imgur.com/ffp6P.jpg

What do you think lurker?
if you are talking about the first "ring" you get to going from left to right, it just looks like a mark from a spring.

Secondly, when you're talking about the dwell of your virtue board, stop using the numbers 16 and 18 or 19. Obviously that's the setting, but that's not what we are asking you. Go look in your manual for your board and tell us what setting 16 refers to in MILLISECONDS. If you are going over 8-10 milliseconds of dwell, you're putting waaaay too much air into it. If you don't have the manual, look it up.
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