[TherealInsomniac]

Originally Posted by 2pipes

^ I can't begin to answer all of that! Well said. The cost of production changes certainly is an issue. As for reliability for those like myself who are investigating DM, I am trying to figure out the garbage from the gems before the purchase. For some reason a number of people are not fans to out right haters of DM? I started this thread stating that I was one of them, but when I looked at my gear and equipment I saw dye products everywhere. Rotors, clothes, mask, barrels..... The list goes on. I thought I was open minded, but somewhere I was prejudiced against DM and didn't know why.

I guess I should add one to the herd and put it through the paces.

Moste people hate on it because there haven't been many major changes since the DM4, and even less than the DM9. People say that "the bolt is exactly the same since 09. I counter with the bolt in the luxe is exactly the same as 08. the Geo since 09, and the ego since 05...its nothing more than perception.

But lets look at the cost of current single tube guns:
Current year
DM1299
Geo3 1350
Luxe 1600
Marq's 1250
Clone GT 1400

The only one up there with tooless disassembly, OLED, crazy reliability is... None of them. the luxe is close but loses points with the reliability and the board. (having a speaker doesn't mean it isn't still LED) . its also by far the most expensive. the GEO 3 has the board and reliability, but looses on the tooless part. the Marq has the board, but loses on reliability and tooless maintenance. the GT has the board, tooless bolt assmembly, but not eyes or grips. reliability is meh. behind everyone here except the luxe. and marq.
For my money the best gun out there is the matrix. and if you REALLY need or want the board then it gets you the whole package for a little less than a luxe. 95% of players don't need or want the extra stuff in the board. It only seems like more because people who are dissatisfied tend to scream louder than those who are satisfied.

Originally Posted by CrazyHarry

IMO, the OLED board is only half of the issue. These may seem like stupid features, but I really like them:
1) If there is a chop in my breach and my marker doesn't see the bolt return, it AUTOMATICALLY goes into eyes off mode instead of acting like it isn't loaded.
2) I have the ability to turn off the auto off functionality. I've gotten nailed a bunch of times after creeping through the woods, carefully setting up my shot, then I pop out and... CRAP... my marker turned off.
3) I really like the buzzer on the board. When I turn off the marker, it beeps, and when I turn on my marker it beeps. I can do it, 100% by feel, without looking at it.

I think the only one worth mentioning here is the auto off, just because so many people do play big games. I haven't had an issue with any of mine turning off from non use, but if you're one of those ninja types... the buzzer is personal preference. AS for #1. if you push and hold the trigger for one second it should force shot, and they eyes go into default mode. cant really remember as its been forever since I had a broken ball in my breech. Matrices don't chop. it's nearly impossible for the bolt to crush a ball in your breech. there isn't enough bolt pressure to break a ball. go ahead and try it. hold a paintball halfway in there turn the eyes of and see how long it takes for the bolt to crush the ball. .. if you're breaking paint its from the loader or the barrel.

Originally Posted by blueshifty

Proof that the matrix is manufactured in the US please?

I love matrixs and have for years, but they have fallen behind IMO. Offering something like the old hybrid toolless bolt removal (with the 560 mod or whatever it was called) and a metal top hat mod so users have the option of tuning. Making a LP gauge and polishing the bolt like the BW bolt should all be factory parts. OLED, macroless... don't care that much, but something like the tadao ebisu where you can load programs via usb with LED programming would be nice. I am still on the fence with macroless, but with the angled adapter and UL ASA it is a non issue.

BL has his guns made in the US and is significantly cheaper. MacDev makes their guns in-house in Australia and has all the latest features for a similar price. Dye is falling behind.

there is a way for the 12/13 bolts to be 100% tooless disassembly. when you put your bolt engine in don't crank it down. finger tight. then when you want to remove, pull the magnetic back cap away and unscrew. so that is stock now.... the 560 was cutting away metal from the back cap posts. it increased the volume of the dump chamber, allowing you to run an even lower HPR. the top hat is the opposite, decreasing the volume requiring a higher input pressure. which actually works against the intent of the design... there really isn't a reason for these beyond the general tinkering stages now. but just curious.. why a metal tophat mod? Id rather see a silicone version like the NT, if they were to offer one. but again this works against the design of the gun. if you want more efficiency great, but Im getting 10-11 pods on mine. At this point were starting to push the limits of current spool guns. GT's get the sameish. geo's get 9-10, luxes get 8-9. if you really want to tune there still the issue of low dwell VS high dwell and the respective pressure compensation. but again, the average user wont mess with this. its a set it and forget it system.
And why the LP gauge?
Bob longs guns are still $1000-1500.

to me something that "should be stock" is something that undeniably improves the gun. If they put in a OLED board stock, they've made a few things a little better. they've also made it easier to break. If they included all of those tinkering parts, they've made it easier to screw up. while I enjoy fixing guns, I don't like doing it because the owner was stupid.

If you guys have specialized needs, go ahead and buy the specialized parts. thats why they are there. But including much of that stock increases the cost of the gun, at little use to the average end user. If this was a 1600 gun, great put everything and anything in there. but its actually the least expensive (new) high end spool available... why raise the price on 100% of the buyers for features only 5-10% will use much less need?

the thing is I can work on the entire team's guns (10), and get through them very quickly, and easily. I can set all of them to the users preference (dwell vs pressure), and quickly get to any problems. especially in the 12/13's. I needn't know specialized board methods because one had a tadao, and another a virtue, and a hater et cetera. everyone can reset the boards off the top of their heads because they are so simple. yellow/blue 1-34 or 3-20.

[2pipes]

Thank you for the time spent writing this up for everyone^. I do appreciate the input. To be honest my opinion has changed quite a bit. From my sig you can see the markers I own mostly Bob Long or Eclipse, and I am a fan of these markers but not necessarily a FANBOY. So my true purpose here is to see what the opinions and facts are relating to DM. I couldn't imagine that DYE would put out crap. Other companies have and they have waned into paintball's past.

On another note I truly believe the only way to know a marker is to owe it. Shooting it over the chrono is fine, but how it feels in the hand, how smooth the shot is, etc? These questions can't be answered with a little target practice with someone else's marker. So where do I start? I don't have the disposal cash to buy a DM 13 and sell it for half 2 months later. (no I am not insulting DM resale value as eclipse drops like a rock too). From above, should I buy a DM 9 as little has changed since then or are their differing opinions?

[TherealInsomniac]

I think for the money a DM9 around 350 is the way to go. especially if you can land an Ironmen version for 4. they tend to be in better shape.
DM11's and 12s can be had for dirt cheap right now. 11s in the $500 range and 12s in the 650's. maybe less...Cash can be very persuasive.

If you do get the 9/10/11 you'll be giving up some tooless bits, a little efficiency. probably the soft face bolt (unless its been upgraded or 2010PGA). the 12 added the tooless bolts. grips on 11s. the 8-9-10 is the eyepipe and detents.

[2pipes]

Thanks I appreciate the advice. Could anyone give me the low down on Billy Wing Bolts?

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac

there is a way for the 12/13 bolts to be 100% tooless disassembly. when you put your bolt engine in don't crank it down. finger tight. then when you want to remove, pull the magnetic back cap away and unscrew. so that is stock now.... the 560 was cutting away metal from the back cap posts. it increased the volume of the dump chamber, allowing you to run an even lower HPR. the top hat is the opposite, decreasing the volume requiring a higher input pressure. which actually works against the intent of the design... there really isn't a reason for these beyond the general tinkering stages now. but just curious.. why a metal tophat mod? Id rather see a silicone version like the NT, if they were to offer one. but again this works against the design of the gun. if you want more efficiency great, but Im getting 10-11 pods on mine. At this point were starting to push the limits of current spool guns. GT's get the sameish. geo's get 9-10, luxes get 8-9. if you really want to tune there still the issue of low dwell VS high dwell and the respective pressure compensation. but again, the average user wont mess with this. its a set it and forget it system.
And why the LP gauge?
Bob longs guns are still $1000-1500.

to me something that "should be stock" is something that undeniably improves the gun. If they put in a OLED board stock, they've made a few things a little better. they've also made it easier to break. If they included all of those tinkering parts, they've made it easier to screw up. while I enjoy fixing guns, I don't like doing it because the owner was stupid.

If you guys have specialized needs, go ahead and buy the specialized parts. thats why they are there. But including much of that stock increases the cost of the gun, at little use to the average end user. If this was a 1600 gun, great put everything and anything in there. but its actually the least expensive (new) high end spool available... why raise the price on 100% of the buyers for features only 5-10% will use much less need?

the thing is I can work on the entire team's guns (10), and get through them very quickly, and easily. I can set all of them to the users preference (dwell vs pressure), and quickly get to any problems. especially in the 12/13's. I needn't know specialized board methods because one had a tadao, and another a virtue, and a hater et cetera. everyone can reset the boards off the top of their heads because they are so simple. yellow/blue 1-34 or 3-20.

You could loosely screw in all the bolts, then twist them out by hand. The 560 also allowed the pressure to flow into the dump chamber a lot cleaner. I agree with you on it's main purpose, but when coupled with a proper top hat mod it puts the air in a more direct flow path to the exhaust allowing a lower dwell to drain the chamber. Silicone for the top hat would be fine too, but I just liked the metal ones. If you bevel it down from the side butted up against the top hat then it works with the 560 as suggested above. As for the pressure tester, most people don't get the turns in thing right, troubleshooting is more difficult and it would allow dye to suggest exact pressures for the "efficient" setup and the "smoothness" setup with a reduced possibility of user error.

The BL guns that are $1500 are the guns with "superior" milling. Guns with amazing designs such as the ripper, dragon, flame, etc.

[bunkerking_13]

Originally Posted by 2pipes

Thanks I appreciate the advice. Could anyone give me the low down on Billy Wing Bolts?

I have one in my DM9 and its nice. Would I ever spend the $100 over the stock bolt? Absolutely not. All the BWING bolt has is a nice polished finish, and you can up your dwell by a hair. And its soft faced, which is nice, but the stock fuse bolt does the trick.

DM's arent like other markers when it comes to bolts. Stock bolts are where its at.

[2pipes]

Originally Posted by bunkerking_13

I have one in my DM9 and its nice. Would I ever spend the $100 over the stock bolt? Absolutely not. All the BWING bolt has is a nice polished finish, and you can up your dwell by a hair. And its soft faced, which is nice, but the stock fuse bolt does the trick.

DM's arent like other markers when it comes to bolts. Stock bolts are where its at.

So if comes in a used marker then it is a plus but not a MUST. Thanks.

[firly mcnasty]

I go to other guns from time to time because at heart I'm a gun whore, but I always come back to a DM.
dm's owned gun's from then to now 1st gen matrix (#058) /2nd gen ltd martix 1.1 pound pewter grip's /dm4,5.7.8.10 love how easy reliable dm's are also does not hurt that i can shoot laser beams of ultra evil and never break a ball.
sold dm went ego11 fast gun i can rail 29 bps with no ball beaks but hate how ball arches sold went to Bl vic2 t-rex same as dm but at same time not didnt like it .now i have a 2012 g6r and wanting to play with it dam winter

[bunkerking_13]

Originally Posted by 2pipes

So if comes in a used marker then it is a plus but not a MUST. Thanks.

you got it.

[speedy2k4]

Originally Posted by blueshifty

The 560 also allowed the pressure to flow into the dump chamber a lot cleaner. I agree with you on it's main purpose, but when coupled with a proper top hat mod it puts the air in a more direct flow path to the exhaust allowing a lower dwell to drain the chamber.

530* mod. And in theory, maybe. Though there are better ways to increase flow rate than chopping off half the back cap. In reality, it was far more likely to result in a broken back cap than any sort of performance gain.

And markers don't come stock with pressure testers because most people want to put a battery in, turn a screw to adjust velocity and go play. I don't particularly like the "turns" approach, because it leads non-technical players to cut deep grooves in their reg seats by cranking it in too much before backing it out. But there are ways of adjusting the LPR properly without a gauge. And the only thing a gauge would be good for is people bragging about "My gun shoots at 35psi."

Originally Posted by bunkerking_13

I have one in my DM9 and its nice. Would I ever spend the $100 over the stock bolt? Absolutely not.

Yours is actually one of the better BWing's I've seen too. Had one DM9 come through, stock bolt ran fine on 2 turns on the LPR, BWing wouldn't cycle consistently until 3. Both with fresh o-rings. Tolerances > surface finish in many cases.

[bunkerking_13]

Originally Posted by speedy2k4

530* mod. And in theory, maybe. Though there are better ways to increase flow rate than chopping off half the back cap. In reality, it was far more likely to result in a broken back cap than any sort of performance gain.

And markers don't come stock with pressure testers because most people want to put a battery in, turn a screw to adjust velocity and go play. I don't particularly like the "turns" approach, because it leads non-technical players to cut deep grooves in their reg seats by cranking it in too much before backing it out. But there are ways of adjusting the LPR properly without a gauge. And the only thing a gauge would be good for is people bragging about "My gun shoots at 35psi."



Yours is actually one of the better BWing's I've seen too. Had one DM9 come through, stock bolt ran fine on 2 turns on the LPR, BWing wouldn't cycle consistently until 3. Both with fresh o-rings. Tolerances > surface finish in many cases.

Wow, weird. Yeah my bolt has always seemed like it was shooting top notch.

[blueshifty]

Originally Posted by speedy2k4

530* mod. And in theory, maybe. Though there are better ways to increase flow rate than chopping off half the back cap. In reality, it was far more likely to result in a broken back cap than any sort of performance gain.

And markers don't come stock with pressure testers because most people want to put a battery in, turn a screw to adjust velocity and go play. I don't particularly like the "turns" approach, because it leads non-technical players to cut deep grooves in their reg seats by cranking it in too much before backing it out. But there are ways of adjusting the LPR properly without a gauge. And the only thing a gauge would be good for is people bragging about "My gun shoots at 35psi."

I couldn't remember the name of that mod (I never did it on my DMs and used a hybrid cap on my PMs). I agree with you on the "turns in" approach. I don't like it at all. PE gets away with it because the LPR adjustment range on their reg is tiny and there is almost no way to mess it up. With quality guns such as the matrices and BL guns the LPR adjustment range is broad to allow us to tune the gun for every last bit of performance. As it is now, people brag about how few of turns in and dwell numbers so all a LP tester would do is allow easier troubleshooting.

[2pipes]

I will give DM a shot. Bought a Damage DM 11. Thanks for helping me try something new. Hopefully I will be a new disciple or do I join the DM mafia?

[GivenRandy]

Originally Posted by Dynomatt

I dig the color coded o rings. Makes things much, much easier.

I liked the concept, but hated the product. During the first 5 outings, I went through 3 of the colored o-rings. It messed with my playing those days, too (fixing gun at field means less time playing). I went with bag of 50 "standard" o-rings and played many, many days before typical wear caused next o-ring to leak. Really turned me off to those fancy colors, but it's a great concept.

[2pipes]

GivenRandy. Thanks for the heads up.... Standard O rings it is.

[2pipes]

Convert for sure! The recently picked up a DM11. Followed many on this thread's advice. It is smooth, easy to work on, and easy the board is easy to change settings! I cannot begin to thank the Dye community enough for the advice before, during, and after the purchase. This thread was to open my mind, but the quality of shot has BLOWN MY MIND instead.

Thanks again from a once Dye Hater!

[iquadra]

Originally Posted by 2pipes

Convert for sure! The recently picked up a DM11. Followed many on this thread's advice. It is smooth, easy to work on, and easy the board is easy to change settings! I cannot begin to thank the Dye community enough for the advice before, during, and after the purchase. This thread was to open my mind, but the quality of shot has BLOWN MY MIND instead.

Thanks again from a once Dye Hater!

Welcome to the family lol!

[bunkerking_13]

Originally Posted by 2pipes

Convert for sure! The recently picked up a DM11. Followed many on this thread's advice. It is smooth, easy to work on, and easy the board is easy to change settings! I cannot begin to thank the Dye community enough for the advice before, during, and after the purchase. This thread was to open my mind, but the quality of shot has BLOWN MY MIND instead.

Thanks again from a once Dye Hater!

Glad to hear.