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Old 01-03-2013, 08:14 PM #22
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Maybe this is a can of worms, but why no OLED screen or sexy voice to program the DM series?
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:56 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2pipes View Post
Maybe this is a can of worms, but why no OLED screen or sexy voice to program the DM series?
There are all kinds of rumors and speculation about this (I don't think there is a really good reason anymore)... but one thing that I've noticed is that Dye is all about recycling parts. The UL grip was, pretty much, unchanged, for 4-5 years. I expect them to try to get the same kind of life out of the NT grip.
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Old 01-03-2013, 10:03 PM #24
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It's not really necessary in my opinion. I've had a few PE guns and E2d cockers and I do love the OLED screens but really it's not really that much more useful in my opinion. The only thing I really like about them is I can see how fast I'm shooting, but they do seem to eat through the batteries a lot faster. Albeit for $1300 I don't believe it would cost them that much more to add on an OLED board. Basically either way I don't care what they do as far as boards go. It doesn't seem like they are putting much money into development of the DM line at the moment

The only thing better about the Luxe's sexy voice, is it sounds sexy. It's no more easy or useful than LEDs in my opinion. It's not that much of a selling point for me, I do like Luxes, but my IM9 shoots sooo much nicer than every Luxe I've shot I would take a DM any day over one.
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Old 01-04-2013, 12:11 AM #25
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The way i see it.... It goes back to that old saying:
"Why change something that works"

So many companies are all about making big changes on their new models, which isnt always a bad thing. Its great to see new innovations and features. But at the same time, Dyes' introduction of the Matrix line was HUGE for the industry, the spool design they have has been the design blueprint for many manufacturers producing spool valve markers for years. They found something that works, and works very well. So really, other than the minor changes like the feedneck/asa/reg/fittings/board adjustments... theres really no drastic changes that need to be made.

That being said, i do think an OLED board should be introduced on the 14 model. These are my thoughts on that topic though:
- For one, as someone said above, Dye loves reusing designs and parts, its good for them as a company as they dont have to buy new molds and produce new designs and inherit testing costs. However, if they just did what Macdev did, and put the OLED in the grip, all that would need to be changed was new UL grips, rather than designing a new grip frame with a screen cutout.
- The issue with what i said above is, i feel Dye has a very good relationship with Virtue. I feel more OLED boards are sold for the DM line of guns than any others. So i have a good feeling if Dye was to begin to put OLED screens on their guns from the factory, it will be a Virtue board and the two companies will have a contract between them (like Bob Long using Tadao)
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Old 01-04-2013, 09:59 AM #26
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The way i see it.... It goes back to that old saying:
"Why change something that works"

So many companies are all about making big changes on their new models, which isnt always a bad thing. Its great to see new innovations and features. But at the same time, Dyes' introduction of the Matrix line was HUGE for the industry, the spool design they have has been the design blueprint for many manufacturers producing spool valve markers for years. They found something that works, and works very well. So really, other than the minor changes like the feedneck/asa/reg/fittings/board adjustments... theres really no drastic changes that need to be made.

That being said, i do think an OLED board should be introduced on the 14 model. These are my thoughts on that topic though:
- For one, as someone said above, Dye loves reusing designs and parts, its good for them as a company as they dont have to buy new molds and produce new designs and inherit testing costs. However, if they just did what Macdev did, and put the OLED in the grip, all that would need to be changed was new UL grips, rather than designing a new grip frame with a screen cutout.
- The issue with what i said above is, i feel Dye has a very good relationship with Virtue. I feel more OLED boards are sold for the DM line of guns than any others. So i have a good feeling if Dye was to begin to put OLED screens on their guns from the factory, it will be a Virtue board and the two companies will have a contract between them (like Bob Long using Tadao)
Cutting the grip frame is as simple as entering in a new program into a CNC mill, which just costs labor. Changing the grips requires a new injection mold to be made... which is insane expensive.

IMO, I absolutely love Virtue's board. I've used the Tadao version as well, and I think the Virtue is vastly superior. I would really like to see them just cut a deal with Virtue to put Virtue boards in Dye grips. Dye's patent on being able to see an LED/OLED screen while shooting + Virtue = huge, mind-numbingly, awesome win.

If they have to price the marker a little higher, I'm okay with that. All highends are moving towards screens, and that's the direction they should go.
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Old 01-04-2013, 10:19 AM #27
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I've never liked screens. They use up more battery power (though new OLEDs aren't nearly as bad as some of the old screens) and are more prone to failure and expensive to replace (if possible to replace) than basic LED lights.

Have a switch for two different configurations. Spend 10 minutes setting up both with blinking lights. Then flip back and forth when needed.
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Old 01-04-2013, 11:59 AM #28
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I've never liked screens. They use up more battery power (though new OLEDs aren't nearly as bad as some of the old screens) and are more prone to failure and expensive to replace (if possible to replace) than basic LED lights.

Have a switch for two different configurations. Spend 10 minutes setting up both with blinking lights. Then flip back and forth when needed.
You could, probably, make a quick press of the power button switch between profiles... no need to add an additional switch.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:00 PM #29
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I was told that dye didn't want to intrude on sales of OLED board companies. Which does not make a lot of sense to me.
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Old 01-04-2013, 01:56 PM #30
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Quote:
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You could, probably, make a quick press of the power button switch between profiles... no need to add an additional switch.
You would still need a switch to act as a tournament lock in that case. But yeah.

Quote:
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I was told that dye didn't want to intrude on sales of OLED board companies. Which does not make a lot of sense to me.
Somehow I doubt they are leaving OLED board production to other companies out of generosity.
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Old 01-04-2013, 05:10 PM #31
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Cutting the grip frame is as simple as entering in a new program into a CNC mill, which just costs labor. Changing the grips requires a new injection mold to be made... which is insane expensive.

IMO, I absolutely love Virtue's board. I've used the Tadao version as well, and I think the Virtue is vastly superior. I would really like to see them just cut a deal with Virtue to put Virtue boards in Dye grips. Dye's patent on being able to see an LED/OLED screen while shooting + Virtue = huge, mind-numbingly, awesome win.

If they have to price the marker a little higher, I'm okay with that. All highends are moving towards screens, and that's the direction they should go.
Honestly, no, because the button pad takes up most of the back, so instead of just programming the CNC, and cutting the hole out, they also have to design a new board with the buttons being in a different place. Whereas if they just partnered with Virtue and used the mold Virtue uses to make their windowed UL grips, it would be a LOT cheaper.

Also, even if they didnt partner with Virtue on that venture, they really wouldnt need a new mold, all they would need is a "punch" to press out a window hole in the grip, and then press in a plastic window.
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Old 01-04-2013, 08:41 PM #32
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:22 AM #33
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I don't hate any paintball gun that is released but i just turn to certain guns depending on what im looking for or what i feel at the time are important qualities to me. I love both Geos and dms but at the moment I want a macroless gun! If dye or PE wont give me that, ill turn to Dlx.
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:43 AM #34
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^ macro lines rule! Well sort of. Most would agree that finding leaks in the internals of a marker sucks.m
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Old 01-05-2013, 12:55 AM #35
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^ macro lines rule! Well sort of. Most would agree that finding leaks in the internals of a marker sucks.m
oh, i will not deny that. Macroless leaks suck balls, i just send the gun back to the company if that happens and dont even consider the monumental headache. They are usually avoidable with regular maintenance and bolt oring replacement.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:29 AM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyHarry

There are all kinds of rumors and speculation about this (I don't think there is a really good reason anymore)... but one thing that I've noticed is that Dye is all about recycling parts. The UL grip was, pretty much, unchanged, for 4-5 years. I expect them to try to get the same kind of life out of the NT grip.
Ok NO OLED and NO VOICE. Then why the price tag? The short answer is probably because they can and people still buy it! I hate blinking lights... Trying to figure out if fast blinking red is firing mode or what?
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:37 AM #37
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The price targets there because if the superiority of the machining, polishing guns actually costs more time and money than a dust finish (ever notice there aren't polished eclipse gun except specials?) being made in the USA costs money.
How often do you need to change board settings? The stock dye board has four colors, all solid. Blue red green yellow. There are 4 adjustable parameters. Firing mode 1-4 blinks, each a different mode. Dwell. Set at 21, never touch again. Rof. Set at 12.5 at 20 blinks, or 15 at 34 blinks, and trigger sensitivity. Don't touch it.
So there are two things to remember, if your changing modes between leagues.
Yellow 1, blue 34 (nppl)
Or yellow 3, blue 20 (psp)

The average user isn't changing modes 3+ times a day. The screens while cool, aren't particularly useful. I've used blinks through oled. Frankly the best thing about the oled was visual confirmation of the eye status on yakuza boards. And because of the power button placement wouldnt be usefule as a heads up. Battery meters aren't accurate enough, programming isn't any easier. Switching modes isn't any easier.
Then there's the practicality of it. Since we only switch the Mode and rof once a month, what's the upside? This isn't 05 where we're trying to get every last millisecond out of the firing cycle. There's no practical reason for bip, or eye sensitivity, et al adjustments.

It's a marginal improvement at best, and the expense would be greater than just labor. The entire grip frame may need to be redesigned, if you want the screen in back. the grips certainly would, and injection moulding is crazy expensive...Is milling these new grip frames increasing time taking longer? How about writing all new programming? The board itself would need to be completely redesigned, those capacitors and switches and screens won't fit themselves in there.
Doing all of this is actually a much larger job than you think. It took virtue and tadao like 3-4 years to figure it out. The first UL frames came out in 05. The first oled boards in 06. I think the first UL oled in 09.
Let's say you pay a programmer and engineer each $20 and hour ( in reality they'd earn more) to work on and put put this board. Lets say its rushed and they get it done in2 years. 54 weeks @40 hrs per. That's almost $90,000. Per person. 173000 dollars for a board that is little more than a cosmetic upgrade.
Then there's the money lost in making their back stock obsolete. But money-not-earned isn't really an expense, though it is a reason to not release a product.

People have mentioned that they wouldn't mind a price increase to include it stock... The price would be roughly the same as just buying it aftermarket. The luxe has everything your asking for Ina similar finished product, witht the board you want. It's $1600. Could you imagine the backlash if dye "only upgraded the board" and tacked a $1599 tag on there?

The reality is that an oled board isn't a necessary thing for everyone who owns the gun. For those who want the feature the aftermarket companies offer it.


What you're actually failing to look at though is the maintenance. Or rather the time it takes. Count the number of screws on a geo or ego, or BL and then count them on the matrix. Then count the sizes of Allen's.
on a matrix you need 2 sizes to do basic maintenance. The 1/4 to pull the bolt, and the 3/16 for the reg adjustments. Everything else is tool less.

In all of my years, my matrices have been the most reliable markers I've owned. More than my ego7/9. More than both of my luxes, more than my intimidators. Way more than the axe. They are rock solid guns. When an oring inevitably goes, it's incredibly easy to track it and change it...im not talking "normal reliable". All guns are reliable if you baby them. It talking week in and week out abuse and neglect. Matrices just seem to work regardless of when the last lubing was or what the temperature is.

Try it sometime. Put in new bolt sails in your spools and Take the luxes, egos, geos, bobs and etcetera after practice and do nothing except wipe off the paint. 10 to 1 the ego and matrix are the last to go. And depending how much oil was in the ego to start, it may shred an oring,and it'll be the matrix and geo.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:51 AM #38
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^ I can't begin to answer all of that! Well said. The cost of production changes certainly is an issue. As for reliability for those like myself who are investigating DM, I am trying to figure out the garbage from the gems before the purchase. For some reason a number of people are not fans to out right haters of DM? I started this thread stating that I was one of them, but when I looked at my gear and equipment I saw dye products everywhere. Rotors, clothes, mask, barrels..... The list goes on. I thought I was open minded, but somewhere I was prejudiced against DM and didn't know why.

I guess I should add one to the herd and put it through the paces.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:10 AM #39
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A well tuned DM is a really nice gun to use. I dont think you would be disappointed if you got one. And if you didnt like it you can sell it to someone else. If you are unsure which to get, try and get a DM11. they have the NT frame, Billy Wing bolt and Eigenring available for them. Comfort and efficiency at once. If you are sold on it maybe you can upgrade to a 12 or even 13, I hear that Eigenring is coming out very soon.
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:43 AM #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TherealInsomniac View Post
How often do you need to change board settings? The stock dye board has four colors, all solid. Blue red green yellow. There are 4 adjustable parameters. Firing mode 1-4 blinks, each a different mode. Dwell. Set at 21, never touch again. Rof. Set at 12.5 at 20 blinks, or 15 at 34 blinks, and trigger sensitivity. Don't touch it.
IMO, the OLED board is only half of the issue. These may seem like stupid features, but I really like them:
1) If there is a chop in my breach and my marker doesn't see the bolt return, it AUTOMATICALLY goes into eyes off mode instead of acting like it isn't loaded.
2) I have the ability to turn off the auto off functionality. I've gotten nailed a bunch of times after creeping through the woods, carefully setting up my shot, then I pop out and... CRAP... my marker turned off.
3) I really like the buzzer on the board. When I turn off the marker, it beeps, and when I turn on my marker it beeps. I can do it, 100% by feel, without looking at it.

I do use the drills at home with reballs, and while I couldn't imagine how much crap it would be trying to do them with just an LED, I don't think that's, nearly, as important of a feature of any of the above mentioned features.
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:27 AM #41
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How often do you need to change board settings? o.
I might be a rarity, but I have been know to change my firing mode from PSP to Semi and change my cap. The place I go has all sorts of people from teams to complete newbs. If the majority are newbs, semi and lower the cap. If more skills then PSP ramp. Now remembering one marker is no problem, but I always bring 2. One is a backup. One is my Vice stacked tube poppet, and the other spool Geo 2. I prefer and frankly don't have to remember crap for the Geo where the Vice i have a cheat sheet laminated in the bag. That is just me.... sometimes I go with my daughters 17,13, and 10. They have another Vice, Axe, and Mini respectfully.

If I could afford it every marker in my family would have an OLED because I hate the blinky little lights.

Again probably not an issue for most, but I wonder how many have 2 different styles of marker in their gear bag and struggle to remember if it is 7 blinks of orange or 10 blinks of white.
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Old 01-09-2013, 12:25 PM #42
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The price targets there because if the superiority of the machining, polishing guns actually costs more time and money than a dust finish (ever notice there aren't polished eclipse gun except specials?) being made in the USA costs money.
Proof that the matrix is manufactured in the US please?

I love matrixs and have for years, but they have fallen behind IMO. Offering something like the old hybrid toolless bolt removal (with the 560 mod or whatever it was called) and a metal top hat mod so users have the option of tuning. Making a LP gauge and polishing the bolt like the BW bolt should all be factory parts. OLED, macroless... don't care that much, but something like the tadao ebisu where you can load programs via usb with LED programming would be nice. I am still on the fence with macroless, but with the angled adapter and UL ASA it is a non issue.

BL has his guns made in the US and is significantly cheaper. MacDev makes their guns in-house in Australia and has all the latest features for a similar price. Dye is falling behind.
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