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Old 11-20-2012, 01:31 AM #85
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Guess which one of these is the real problem?

On top of this, unions gave concessions earlier that amounted to over $100m in savings, which was effectively looted:



Stop being useful anti-union idiots and wake up to what the American worker is facing today. The reason things suck for you as an at-will worker is because unions today have been weakened so much as to no longer have much influence on labor practices.

What you are seeing is a slow dismantling of job conditions people take for granted today because they don't realize they are the result of unionization. Without unions, nothing will stop these losses.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:41 AM #86
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What the American worker really need is a Rooseveltian commitment to full employment policy, which would give labor a much more tenable bargaining position.

But of course all you hear from the GOP is TEH DEFICITZ!
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:44 AM #87
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Originally Posted by drgonzo View Post


Guess which one of these is the real problem?

On top of this, unions gave concessions earlier that amounted to over $100m in savings, which was effectively looted:



Stop being useful anti-union idiots and wake up to what the American worker is facing today. The reason things suck for you as an at-will worker is because unions today have been weakened so much as to no longer have much influence on labor practices.

What you are seeing is a slow dismantling of job conditions people take for granted today because they don't realize they are the result of unionization. Without unions, nothing will stop these losses.

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...nd-the-economy
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:46 AM #88
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Also:

Probably the item I find the most disagreeable is this following statement on individualism. It is why I have never belonged to a union, it goes against how I was raised.

“Final union contracts typically give workers group identities instead of treating them as individuals. Unions do not have the resources to monitor each worker’s performance and tailor the contract accordingly. Even if they could, they would not want to do so. Unions want employees to view the union–not their individual achievements–as the source of their economic gains. As a result, union contracts typically base pay and promotions on seniority or detailed union job classifications. Unions rarely allow employers to base pay on individual performance or promote workers on the basis of individual ability.”



Hostess was under bad management, we can all agree upon this. However, trying to use that as an excuse to throw the "dont hate on unions, it's not their fault" card in to play is not acceptable.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:58 AM #89
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Yeah cutting and pasting from the Heritage foundation to prove anything at all about unions = utter fail.

Research your own **** rather than parroting right-wing think tanks. They were created to take your wealth, why would you put your faith in them?

As for my personal anecdote, the union shops I worked in were by far, far, FAR the most competent and getting the job done and filled with the most competent workers. When labor costs are high, companies get selective and well-paid workers actually give a ****. Working in nonunionized shops, there are a ton of idiots and people who don't give a ****.

People with job security can look at their work as careers. People care about their careers and actively work to advance them. People who work **** jobs with no job security not only don't consider them careers and don't advance them, but are justified to as there is no surety that their time investment will pay off.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:07 AM #90
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Yeah cutting and pasting from the NY Times to prove anything at all about unions = utter fail.

Research your own **** rather than parroting left-wing think tanks.

As for my personal anecdote, the union shops I worked in were by far, far, FAR the most competent and getting the job done and filled with the most competent workers. When labor costs are high, companies get selective and well-payed workers actually give a ****. Working in nonunionized shops, there are a ton of idiots and people who don't give a ****.
fixed ur quote there a little bit to use for my needs.

Also, on your "personal anecdote," all I have to say is.... teacher unions.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:12 AM #91
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Yeah cutting and pasting from the Heritage foundation to prove anything at all about unions = utter fail.
ha, i was gonna guess mises.org
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:17 AM #92
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Edit to above: Googling what he wrote comes up with a word for word from heritage.com.

When you copy a post word for word from somewhere it's proper to put it in quotes and provide a link.

You did neither, Mr. James.

Furthermore, while I disagree with Gonzos stance on Unions and how we absolutely need them (and his idea that any of us blamed this on Unions...) he has just creamed you in an argument based solely on the fact he knows how to properly use sources and write his own arguments.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:22 AM #93
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fact: the U.S. had higher savings rates when union density was higher

fact: the countries with the highest union density in the OECD also have higher savings rates than the U.S.

Now whether or not this is attributable to union density is another thing, but color me skeptical of their narrative, especially coming from an institution as dodgy as the heritage foundation.

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Old 11-20-2012, 02:28 AM #94
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Also, on your "personal anecdote," all I have to say is.... teacher unions.
What about them? My state has one of the most powerful in the nation most likely, and every teacher I know is great. You don't become a teacher, let alone pursue a teaching career without a passion for the work.

And that's why removing unions and tenure is damaging to the profession. When any profession starts being looked at as "just a job," some at-will labor to pay the bills with no security or stability, the quality of worker declines.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:29 AM #95
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ok fine i shall give a personal anecdote...

i used to be in high school. my father works for a school district. the good teachers are almost always gotten rid of before the terrible ones are. why? unions base who they stand for the most off of seniority, instead of performance.

now, my question to you... why should a teacher past the 2 year mark be worried at all about trying to improve anything when they know the wonderful union will continue to get them increasing salaries with "experience," as well as other benefits that kick in after a certain amount of time.

However, if a terrific teacher comes along and cuts have to be made, the outstanding teacher with 1.5 years at the school will be cut over the terrible and horrific teacher who has been there for 4 years. That is a fact.

I hate to break the news to you gonzo, but when you are in a career where you are promoted and fired based on performance, people tend to perform better. I can vouch on that one as I have seen it happen time and time again. You're argument above about union workers are better and more competent workers is far from 100% accurate.


Also, from what you say about becoming a teacher because you love it. Actually, my dad could argue with you on that one. There are many people who pursue a teaching career because it is easy to get in to. Teaching credentials are one of the easiest programs to earn. You also are almost guaranteed a long and lengthy career. I personally know a woman who has fully admitted to me that she is only a teacher because it is a stable job that provides ok enough for her to get by, although she doesn't like teaching too much. Luckily for her she has been teaching for years and she will always have a job, no matter how bad her testing results are.


Also, I fixed my earlier post so you guys don't get your panties in a bunch for not posting the link. I edited it slightly to a better article.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:54 AM #96
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ok fine i shall give a personal anecdote...

i used to be in high school. my father works for a school district. the good teachers are almost always gotten rid of before the terrible ones are. why? unions base who they stand for the most off of seniority, instead of performance.

now, my question to you... why should a teacher past the 2 year mark be worried at all about trying to improve anything when they know the wonderful union will continue to get them increasing salaries with "experience," as well as other benefits that kick in after a certain amount of time.

However, if a terrific teacher comes along and cuts have to be made, the outstanding teacher with 1.5 years at the school will be cut over the terrible and horrific teacher who has been there for 4 years. That is a fact.

I hate to break the news to you gonzo, but when you are in a career where you are promoted and fired based on performance, people tend to perform better. I can vouch on that one as I have seen it happen time and time again. You're argument above about union workers are better and more competent workers is far from 100% accurate.

Also, from what you say about becoming a teacher because you love it. Actually, my dad could argue with you on that one. There are many people who pursue a teaching career because it is easy to get in to. Teaching credentials are one of the easiest programs to earn. You also are almost guaranteed a long and lengthy career. I personally know a woman who has fully admitted to me that she is only a teacher because it is a stable job that provides ok enough for her to get by, although she doesn't like teaching too much. Luckily for her she has been teaching for years and she will always have a job, no matter how bad her testing results are.

Also, I fixed my earlier post so you guys don't get your panties in a bunch for not posting the link. I edited it slightly to a better article.
So all your information is secondhand from your dad?

Plenty of questions to ask, such as, what makes a "good" teacher versus a "horrible" one? Every profession has better and worse people at it, however at-will employment in my experience does no better, and oftentimes worse, at hiring good people over bad, as wages are invariably lower and there is no incentive to stay. Sure you can fire the bad ones, but the good ones don't stick around either.

The "good" young teachers should not be getting fired, they should continue with their jobs to eventually replace the older teachers who retire. But in the modern economy we see budget cutting that knocks off the vulnerable young workers, coupled with the lack of social security (particularly medical) that keeps the older workers from retiring. A healthier job market would have workers retiring earlier and younger workers advancing into permanent careers. And a healthier job market has something to offer the woman in your anecdote that she actually enjoys doing and would make more money doing because of it.

That said, and you will learn this when you get older, there is a reason why it is preferable for young workers' jobs to be less secure than older workers. Younger workers are much more likely to be successful going back on the job market and landing a job similar in pay to the previous one. It's much, much easier for entry level workers to do this than long-established workers fired out of a career. Unions protect seniority to prevent companies from simply firing all the older experienced workers and replacing them with young cheap workers.

Workers losing jobs and ending up with lower paying jobs is bad for the economy. Employment -- good employment -- is the driver of a strong American economy. If everyone is employed and getting paid well, the riches will flow to the companies and financiers automatically. There is NO need to set things up to favor them, just the opposite.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:32 AM #97
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ok fine i shall give a personal anecdote...

i used to be in high school.
made it this far before
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:54 AM #98
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What the American worker really need is a Rooseveltian commitment to full employment policy, which would give labor a much more tenable bargaining position.

But of course all you hear from the GOP is TEH DEFICITZ!
You mean ditch diggers for the sake of digging ditches?
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:19 AM #99
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You don't become a teacher, let alone pursue a teaching career without a passion for the work.
This made me laugh.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:57 PM #100
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So all your information is secondhand from your dad?

Plenty of questions to ask, such as, what makes a "good" teacher versus a "horrible" one? Every profession has better and worse people at it, however at-will employment in my experience does no better, and oftentimes worse, at hiring good people over bad, as wages are invariably lower and there is no incentive to stay. Sure you can fire the bad ones, but the good ones don't stick around either.

The "good" young teachers should not be getting fired, they should continue with their jobs to eventually replace the older teachers who retire. But in the modern economy we see budget cutting that knocks off the vulnerable young workers, coupled with the lack of social security (particularly medical) that keeps the older workers from retiring. A healthier job market would have workers retiring earlier and younger workers advancing into permanent careers. And a healthier job market has something to offer the woman in your anecdote that she actually enjoys doing and would make more money doing because of it.

That said, and you will learn this when you get older, there is a reason why it is preferable for young workers' jobs to be less secure than older workers. Younger workers are much more likely to be successful going back on the job market and landing a job similar in pay to the previous one. It's much, much easier for entry level workers to do this than long-established workers fired out of a career. Unions protect seniority to prevent companies from simply firing all the older experienced workers and replacing them with young cheap workers.

Workers losing jobs and ending up with lower paying jobs is bad for the economy. Employment -- good employment -- is the driver of a strong American economy. If everyone is employed and getting paid well, the riches will flow to the companies and financiers automatically. There is NO need to set things up to favor them, just the opposite.
No it doesn't all com secondhand from my dad. I have been in high school, I'm in college, and I've seen and heard it happen by developing good enough relationships with numerous teachers. I also hear my dad talking about it from time to time when layoffs come around.

Bold 1) However, this in turn also keeps older workers who are terrible at their jobs in the position, hurting overall economic progress. An example of teachers again, why does the teacher who was hired when layoffs werent coming and got secured a job, although a bad teacher get to keep their job while the excellent teacher loses theirs. I am not really sure how else I can explain this so you understand what I am trying to say when it comes to the fairness or having a job based on performance that gives good professionals a job instead of a bad one.

Bold 2) You should probably take a look at retail and other less skilled labor forces. You have no idea how many older people work in the field that used to be teachers, secretaries, business workers, construction, etc; all losing their jobs recently and during the recession, still stuck there because job growth you always rave about isn't actually helping a majority of people.


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This made me laugh.
This made me laugh too benji. He must walk around in the world with his eyes closed.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:33 PM #101
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It's true that teachers should have a passion for teaching, but the reality is that many enter professional education for very different reasons, particularly the limited job opportunities for liberal arts majors in an increasingly educated workforce during a slowing economy.
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:47 PM #102
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Bold 2) You should probably take a look at retail and other less skilled labor forces. You have no idea how many older people work in the field that used to be teachers, secretaries, business workers, construction, etc; all losing their jobs recently and during the recession, still stuck there because job growth you always rave about isn't actually helping a majority of people.
This doesn't make any sense. This is exactly my point. Thanks for making it but do notice it dismantles most of what you talk about.

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It's true that teachers should have a passion for teaching, but the reality is that many enter professional education for very different reasons, particularly the limited job opportunities for liberal arts majors in an increasingly educated workforce during a slowing economy.
This is a fairly recent development, and not a positive one, caused by the deterioration of the American middle class. Maybe I'm lucky to live in a strongly unionized school system, but it's actually fairly demanding to carve out a career teaching in the DOE.

Great societies can support robust culture, which translates into employment for arts majors. The fact that arts majors are finding it hard to find work these days shows that America's culture is deteriorating.

Again, not a positive development and exactly the point I'm making. In areas where teaching has become "just a job" and not a career, you see deterioration in the quality of workers.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:24 PM #103
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How can you expect a robust culture from a population whose country resembles a marketplace place? Art is not made in the Bazaar, it is sold in the Bazaar. That is why your art majors have no function.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:57 PM #104
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How can you expect a robust culture from a population whose country resembles a marketplace place? Art is not made in the Bazaar, it is sold in the Bazaar. That is why your art majors have no function.
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Old 11-20-2012, 05:38 PM #105
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How can you expect a robust culture from a population whose country resembles a marketplace place? Art is not made in the Bazaar, it is sold in the Bazaar. That is why your art majors have no function.
Well you've touched on a major growing problem with America today. If all America is doing is reselling stuff others make and letting its own culture go bad in the meantime, that's a recipe for decline.

Investments in culture need to be made, if all we are is a market, other markets can and will eventually compete with us and quite probably beat us out.
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