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Old 11-17-2012, 10:30 AM #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scroadkill View Post
hey - Pleasing everybody is an exercise in futility. It is better to specialize in one thing and do it well. Speedball, Woodsball, Tourneyball : Pick one and do it well.
It's *easier* to pick one thing and do it well, but in the defense of "one happy family", our needs are not so alien that *one* place can't do all of that well....the prime factor is getting enough of a player base to support doing all of it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:56 AM #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
It's *easier* to pick one thing and do it well, but in the defense of "one happy family", our needs are not so alien that *one* place can't do all of that well
You are right, it can be done and some fields do it fairly well (others fail miserably), but if the market is large enough, my belief is that a field that specializes will do a better job catering to that specific group than a field that tries to do it all.

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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
the prime factor is getting enough of a player base to support doing all of it.
Therein lies the problem. Many markets are not big enough, so often those fields will try to cater to all, but will end up doing a half-assed job. Even in big markets, most often there are multiple fields competing (that's a good thing), and most will also try to do it all because they don't want to lose customers to the competition. If there were more specialization, the customers would be served better and the fields could run leaner, better organized businesses that do one thing really well, serving a relatively large customer base of that specific kind rather than trying to keep a marginal amount of each type of player happy, but always struggling to have enough of each type. It's never made much sense to me.

In a small market that can only support one field, specialization may not be an option available to them.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:38 PM #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
If there were more specialization, the customers would be served better and the fields could run leaner, better organized businesses that do one thing really well, serving a relatively large customer base of that specific kind rather than trying to keep a marginal amount of each type of player happy, but always struggling to have enough of each type. It's never made much sense to me.
In general, making the call of "that's too much, I can't do that" is not something people do well....most people over-reach figuring "yeah, I can do that"...it's just another piece of human nature.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:27 AM #109
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Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
In general, making the call of "that's too much, I can't do that" is not something people do well....most people over-reach figuring "yeah, I can do that"...it's just another piece of human nature.
true enough. In marketing its called line extension: add more services / more variety to the product existing line. The downside is that by adding more stuff to the existing brand you dilute the power of the brand.

It is better to dominate a product category and be known as the best in the mind of the consumer in that category.

You want a very reliable truck:
You want a very safe car for your wife:
You want a pizza delivered:
You want a decent inexpensive take-out pizza:
You want the best diet-cola:
You want the king of beers:
You want a really good cup of coffee:


In blind taste tests coke and pepsi score about 50/50.
In non-blind taste tests coke out scores pepsi 75/25.
why: because most people believe coke tastes best.
oh.. and coke outsells pepsi nearly 2 to 1.

--------------

Now lets say there were 10 speedball fields w/in 30 minutes of you and you wanted to go play speedball at the field that offered the best services at a fair price. Would you go to the field that offered the best services at a fair price or the speedball field that also offered woodsball because it also offered woodsball?

Which of these two fields in this example do you think would be better able to provide you the better speedball associates services?
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:57 AM #110
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First of all, it's been fairly well established and admitted to by some higher ups in the paintball industry that paintball participation started to decline before the USA (and the rest of the world) went into a recession. And if you remember, very shortly before the carpet got pulled out from the economy, the USA was in an economic boom (which of course made the recession seem that much worse, but that's another topic). But the reality is that paintball started to decline during the boom, before the recession.

There was a time in our sport's history when anyone that wanted to get more serious about paintball, went the tournament paintball route, which soon became known as speedball. You either played a slower version of paintball on larger fields or you chose to play on smaller fields with like minded folk who enjoyed a faster paced, more intense game.

As the technology the fast game was advancing, became available to those playing in the woods, the game in the woods changed as well and those who wanted to play more advanced paintball now had a choice to either play tournament type paintball or stay in the woods (or on other rec type fields) and play with like minded players there. MilSim was just a natural progression for those that had started playing woodsball that wanted to play more seriously. MilSim is just one choice though, as players can play recreational paintball with like minded players without having to get decked out in MilSim gear. Some just play advance ball tag, without specific equipment or clothing. That's sort of what I see myself playing. Just advanced ball tag, on whatever kind of field happens to be available.

So I agree with venarius that one of the reasons tournament type speedball has declined is because there are other forms of advanced paintball available. Players who want a more extreme version of paintball no longer need to step onto a speedball field to get it, which used to be the way it was.
. agreed. but i would argue that back in the day, your average woods player would want to graduate to tournament play if he was ready to take the leap and step up the game. Now kids are content to play paintball like COD and pretend they are rambo, and never advance. Similarly like guitar hero kids are content to pretend they are in a band rather than start one. Kids these days are spineless babies who can't man up.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:17 AM #111
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Originally Posted by L.A. Astronaut View Post
.. Kids these days are spineless babies who can't man up.
Dude - I'm guessing you have never had children.

I agree kids who play paintball don't seem care about advancing through the ranks in paintball.

The reason: not because they are wusses, but rather because they don't view paintball as a real sport worthy of their ambition; or its pros worthy of their admiration. It is not a career path. It is game - played to have fun with their friends.. not to win fame and fortune.

On the other hand football, baseball and even basketball do get considerable attention from kids. Paintball is a joke in comparison... ESPECIALLY at the professional level.

Mods: not trying to flame the guy - just tossing some reality into the conversation.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:23 AM #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L.A. Astronaut

. agreed. but i would argue that back in the day, your average woods player would want to graduate to tournament play if he was ready to take the leap and step up the game. Now kids are content to play paintball like COD and pretend they are rambo, and never advance. Similarly like guitar hero kids are content to pretend they are in a band rather than start one. Kids these days are spineless babies who can't man up.
But who is to say that "advancing" in paintball means becoming a tournament speedballer? Seems that's the common misconception. That woodsballers are some how less skilled or lower ability paintballers. But in actuality they are two different styles of play. Deciding to remain a woodsballer doesn't mean you aren't "advancing".
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:43 AM #113
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I argue as well I know many people who play paintball and never advance, but they have no reason too. They are out there too have a good time nothing else. Granted there are those who start out just going to have fun that decide to advance, such as myself. I started off a few years ago and got a brass eagle, now I play with a mini with the rotor and fully geared. I'm also entering 3-man tournaments in HPL.
It's all the individuals personal choice
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:01 AM #114
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Point remains the same though. Why do y'all assume advancing in paintball means playing tournament speedball??
I believe there are many who are highly skilled woodsballers who don't go to speedball not because they refuse to advance at all but because they choose to advance in woodsball.
Seems there is also the belief that woodsball is just for fun. No concern for winning or losing. No competitiveness. And that speedball is the only competitive form of paintball. Again, that's a common misconception.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:29 AM #115
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Point remains the same though. Why do y'all assume advancing in paintball means playing tournament speedball??
I believe there are many who are highly skilled woodsballers who don't go to speedball not because they refuse to advance at all but because they choose to advance in woodsball.
Seems there is also the belief that woodsball is just for fun. No concern for winning or losing. No competitiveness. And that speedball is the only competitive form of paintball. Again, that's a common misconception.
Agreed. That's the way it is now. But at one time, most (not necessarily all) players felt that playing paintball "seriously" meant moving to speedball. If playing in the woods was not intense enough after a while, you started playing speedball where everything happened faster and fields were smaller.

But because that has changed, speedball participation has declined. Players no longer need to leave the woods (or other rec fields) to get that adrenaline rush. The technology is there for everyone to use and paintball prices came down so much that these days that players playing rec paintball can shoot more than competitive speedballers used to shoot.
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Old 11-19-2012, 05:26 PM #116
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I know lots of folks who consider the pinnacle of the sport limited paint oldschool outlaw ball. Its quite possible that the first game was perfect to begin with.. and everything since then have been a steps backwards as we now see the game returning to its roots.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:20 PM #117
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The sport is competetive. "Getting better" *should* involve "getting better at the competition". In that light, most folks are going to view some objective scorekeeping authority (like you get in tournaments) as the best metric of how good they are.

Now, there are a number of folks who don't need that validation...they know what they can do, they know what they want to to better and they can work on that in any forum they play in....but that kind of rugged self reliance is pretty rare.

I don't think we're ever going to get away from viewing the upline of paintball as tournament play in some form.
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Old 11-19-2012, 06:43 PM #118
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Call my crazy but paintball to me is a hobby, I have no desire to play on a pro or semi pro team. I pay full price for field entry and paint, weird right? I play about twice a month because that is the time I have given myself for my hobby (full time job, two kids, wife, keeps me busy).

I am happy to see fields engaging in more types of play, I like the tactical type of play, I like woodsball, it is nice to have options besides speed ball.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:10 PM #119
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back in the day, your average woods player would want to graduate to tournament play if he was ready to take the leap and step up the game. Now kids are content to play paintball like COD and pretend they are rambo, and never advance
Quote:
But who is to say that "advancing" in paintball means becoming a tournament speedballer? Seems that's the common misconception. That woodsballers are some how less skilled or lower ability paintballers. But in actuality they are two different styles of play. Deciding to remain a woodsballer doesn't mean you aren't "advancing".
Quote:
Agreed. That's the way it is now. But at one time, most (not necessarily all) players felt that playing paintball "seriously" meant moving to speedball.

Well we're shifting back to the original post... where I pointed out that "advancing" in paintball now-a-days has an additional route OTHER than speedball/tourney play... and that is advanced woods/rec-ball. That was the point of the OP.

Glad to see people commenting on that aspect. The "Decline of speedball" title was meant to be a bit provacative to entice people to read the thread...

But people seem to focus on the speedball and forget the other half of the OP.

Sufficed to say, I think kids now-a-days CAN "man up" and get hardcore into advanced woods-ball... "Manning up" to advanced play is no longer a "Speedball only" avenue...

And in my opinion, having more options for advancement is a good thing.


Now-a-days the newer players at the local fields are looking less to bright Jersey'd Tourney players and more to old-school Camoed Woods-Guru's (who have just as pricey equipment many times). When I left paintball a decade ago it was the other way around. I for one am glad to see the pendulum swing back.

And here's your $0.98 cents back
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Old 11-20-2012, 06:32 AM #120
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.. I for one am glad to see the pendulum swing the back. And here's your $0.98 cents back
^ priceless. +1, /thread
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Old 11-21-2012, 10:34 PM #121
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I stopped playing d1 because the attitudes of tourney players completely changed.

It stopped being fun and became only about *****ing and judging players by their equipment.(my #1 pet peeve)
Alot of players, not all, could use a reality check. This is just paintball..settle down and have fun. Those kids playing speedball with tppys n spyders make this sport. don't scare them away with your ego.

Oh and the economy blows and speedball is expensive
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