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Old 11-26-2012, 04:47 PM #64
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Killing for unjust cause or just cause carries the implication that killing is bad altogether. Which calls for the distinction between murder and self defense. We still see that taking a life is bad, but we see that defending oneself is good. See where I'm trying to go with this?
Killing for just cause carries the implication that there is a hierarchy, where killing is acceptable depending on motive. In defense, what is worth defending with deadly force is the moral decision point... family, yourself, friends, faith? Who gets the final say on what is "just"?

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If a man lies cheats kills and steals his way to prominence and breeds, what does that speak towards the self destructive nature of the human? How can you say these behaviors are self destructive to the human race if they allow members of it to thrive?
Natural selection is a strictly biological mechanism; sentient life doesn't have to abide the rules. When I keep referring to the outliers... they choose to contribute to the betterment of humankind and it is done through selflessness and service. You say the liars, cheats and killers "thrive," but according to what benchmark? Thrive itself is pretty relative. Ask a true humanitarian and I believe their "rewards" offset their service.

So back to the question... Why the outliers?

Do some people see their value only in others or is it that most of us are materialistic... or is there something more profound? What way of thinking allows people to have joy in poverty and others to be miserable in abundance?
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:13 AM #65
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Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
Killing for just cause carries the implication that there is a hierarchy, where killing is acceptable depending on motive. In defense, what is worth defending with deadly force is the moral decision point... family, yourself, friends, faith? Who gets the final say on what is "just"?



Natural selection is a strictly biological mechanism; sentient life doesn't have to abide the rules. When I keep referring to the outliers... they choose to contribute to the betterment of humankind and it is done through selflessness and service. You say the liars, cheats and killers "thrive," but according to what benchmark? Thrive itself is pretty relative. Ask a true humanitarian and I believe their "rewards" offset their service.

So back to the question... Why the outliers?

Do some people see their value only in others or is it that most of us are materialistic... or is there something more profound? What way of thinking allows people to have joy in poverty and others to be miserable in abundance?
Man this spun so far off track.....I'm going to restate my last two points so we keep this from going south.

Look, you wanted to make the distinction between killing in self defense and murder. With murder being evil and self defense being permissible. I'm attempting to show that this rests on the presumption that taking a life is bad altogether.

You claim that man is self destructive. I'm assuming this is what makes his nature evil. If the behaviors which you claim to be an imperfection, are not causing man to be self destructive, then how can they be evil?
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Old 11-27-2012, 10:22 AM #66
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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
Look, you wanted to make the distinction between killing in self defense and murder. With murder being evil and self defense being permissible. I'm attempting to show that this rests on the presumption that taking a life is bad altogether.
So, you believe that there is no inherent value to human life? If so, then by classification you are a psychopath and cannot be reasoned with rationally. I understand this is a philosophy forum, but at some point I have to make the assumption that some ideas are universally accepted by sane individuals.

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Originally Posted by Iamamartianchurch View Post
You claim that man is self destructive. I'm assuming this is what makes his nature evil. If the behaviors which you claim to be an imperfection, are not causing man to be self destructive, then how can they be evil?
I believe man is destroying himself because he is evil. Since it is in our nature to exhibit behaviors such as stealing, lying, cheating, etc then we will eventually lead to our own demise. To restate that, since it is in our nature to be evil we do things counterproductive to the betterment of mankind. Was the holocaust an isolated incident or the manifestation of a bigger problem?

You said in your previous post that people lie, cheat, steal and BREED which is why I said natural selection is applicable as a biological mechanism. It is not off topic at all because "thriving" in that context is also biological. I proposed the idea that thriving is not biological.
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:48 AM #67
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Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
So, you believe that there is no inherent value to human life? If so, then by classification you are a psychopath and cannot be reasoned with rationally. I understand this is a philosophy forum, but at some point I have to make the assumption that some ideas are universally accepted by sane individuals.
Im not arguing what I believe. I haven't really done that this whole time. I'm challenging your positions. Please understand this, because it is ****ing up the entire conversation. Taking a life is not universally accepted by human beings to be bad. There have been plenty of cultures that have stated so. I understand that your culture says that every human life is inherently valuable. From other perspectives, you look insane. Unless you can qualify objectively that human beings are inherently valuable, your position has no grounds.


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Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
I believe man is destroying himself because he is evil. Since it is in our nature to exhibit behaviors such as stealing, lying, cheating, etc then we will eventually lead to our own demise. To restate that, since it is in our nature to be evil we do things counterproductive to the betterment of mankind. Was the holocaust an isolated incident or the manifestation of a bigger problem?
If stealing lying cheating etc have been around as long as man, they have not led to our demise. Certainly it can be demonstrated that those who lie cheat and steal do fairly well for themselves. If the behavior wasn't advantageous in any way, it would not be employed.

The good and evil dichotomy has nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with the betterment of mankind. If, however, the dichotomy is about making mankind better, then executing those who lie cheat and steal is an act of Good.


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You said in your previous post that people lie, cheat, steal and BREED which is why I said natural selection is applicable as a biological mechanism. It is not off topic at all because "thriving" in that context is also biological. I proposed the idea that thriving is not biological.
If we deal with biology, natural selection or any form of primal existence, then the entire conversation about morality, good and evil falls flat on its face and we should all convert into Neitzcheians.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:00 PM #68
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Im not arguing what I believe. I haven't really done that this whole time. I'm challenging your positions. Please understand this, because it is ****ing up the entire conversation. Taking a life is not universally accepted by human beings to be bad. There have been plenty of cultures that have stated so. I understand that your culture says that every human life is inherently valuable. From other perspectives, you look insane. Unless you can qualify objectively that human beings are inherently valuable, your position has no grounds.
I realize that you haven't really given a position on the issue, but jumping from one to another mid-idea is hard to follow. I am unsure of any culture that accepts murder, unprovoked and unjustified, as an acceptable practice. Lives are taken or sacrificed for many reasons, but not squandered. It is a universal truth and part of what separates us from animals. To reason otherwise would be from a psychopathic standpoint and stems from a psychological disorder.

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If stealing lying cheating etc have been around as long as man, they have not led to our demise. Certainly it can be demonstrated that those who lie cheat and steal do fairly well for themselves. If the behavior wasn't advantageous in any way, it would not be employed.
What does it mean to do well for oneself? How is it measured? Material possessions... I don't think that is true. It is employed because most people associate prowess with tangibles which is one of the most fundamental issues with mankind. That is a pretty universal truth as well. Though the object of affection is different, the concept is the same. The demise of mankind doesn't have to necessary mean the extinction of our species either (though the tools now can better facilitate that), but rather can mean the complete unraveling of good. Compromise begets compromise. That leads to a corkscrew effect where we get further from the original intent.

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The good and evil dichotomy has nothing, I repeat, nothing to do with the betterment of mankind. If, however, the dichotomy is about making mankind better, then executing those who lie cheat and steal is an act of Good.
That is an interesting idea. I may have to rethink my semantics on "evil" and maybe use the word "bad" instead, but conceptually nothing changes for me. There are certain undeniable truths that are universal as well as certain delusions that are almost as ubiquitous.
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Old 11-27-2012, 01:39 PM #69
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I realize that you haven't really given a position on the issue, but jumping from one to another mid-idea is hard to follow. I am unsure of any culture that accepts murder, unprovoked and unjustified, as an acceptable practice. Lives are taken or sacrificed for many reasons, but not squandered. It is a universal truth and part of what separates us from animals. To reason otherwise would be from a psychopathic standpoint and stems from a psychological disorder.
I find it rare that murder is committed wholly unprovoked and without purpose. So, truthfully, if murder is unjustified killing, it is subjective. In order to be qualified as evil, you would need to prove that there are objectively unjustifiable reasons for killing. You can't do that until we have a good working definition of evil. The list of actions provided by Wikipedia doesn't cut it. We need a precise definition that explains why said actions are evil.


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What does it mean to do well for oneself? How is it measured? Material possessions... I don't think that is true. It is employed because most people associate prowess with tangibles which is one of the most fundamental issues with mankind. That is a pretty universal truth as well. Though the object of affection is different, the concept is the same. The demise of mankind doesn't have to necessary mean the extinction of our species either (though the tools now can better facilitate that), but rather can mean the complete unraveling of good. Compromise begets compromise. That leads to a corkscrew effect where we get further from the original intent.
What matters is that the actions have some tangible benefit. That could allow for excess, it could allow someone to scrape by. You need to better explain the demise of mankind and define Good.

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Originally Posted by blueshifty View Post
That is an interesting idea. I may have to rethink my semantics on "evil" and maybe use the word "bad" instead, but conceptually nothing changes for me. There are certain undeniable truths that are universal as well as certain delusions that are almost as ubiquitous.
We need to put the entire conversation on pause at this point. We need definitions of both Good and Evil.

Ex.

What is Evil such that an action can be said to be evil?

What is Good such that an action can be said to be Good?
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:39 PM #70
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I will preface this with the concept that you can judge a tree by it's fruit - that bad actions are the result of a corrupt nature. We punish actions and base most of this on physical manifestation, but nearly all of us think things much worse than we act upon.

Evil - Actions motivated by selfishness
Examples: jealousy, rage, dissension, envy

Neutral - Justice

Good - Altruism
Evidences: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:50 PM #71
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Much better. Thank you.

From your definitions of Good and Evil, your points thus far have been valid. From this viewpoint, man is fundamentally evil in nature, as is all life in actuality.

That being said, I completely reject your definitions of Good and Evil. That isn't even touching the fact that I think Good and Evil are illusory. But, my views are a whole another topic.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:13 PM #72
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That being said, I completely reject your definitions of Good and Evil. That isn't even touching the fact that I think Good and Evil are illusory. But, my views are a whole another topic.
I am going to make a wild leap here and say that much of what I can garner from your responses seem inline with what I have read on this site:

http://www.reasoned.org

Read it?
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:30 PM #73
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I am going to make a wild leap here and say that much of what I can garner from your responses seem inline with what I have read on this site:

http://www.reasoned.org

Read it?
Never seen or heard of it. Glancing over the first few paragraphs of part one, I agree with little of it.
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Old 11-30-2012, 10:42 AM #74
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i treat people as i wish them to treat me

except for my brother and sister
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Old 04-14-2013, 11:02 AM #75
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transcendentalism- My junior year English teacher got me onto it and ever since I've been all about it. The original punks/hippies. But they also believe in following your own path and not the path that people feel you need to follow.
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Old 04-14-2013, 01:05 PM #76
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You sure you're not into Necromancy? j/k

I don't believe in religion but follow Christ and accept him as my Lord and Savior. He's set me free and can do the same for you.
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:39 PM #77
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My Mother is Christian and her parents are Christian. But myself and my father have seen UFO's on two different occasions (once together back in 2000 and we've each seen one by ourselves). I can't believe in any modern day religion because none of them discuss other intelligent life forms in the Universe. I do believe that a single force put everything into action. I do believe that there are a plethora of life forms, intelligent and simplistic, within our Universe and even within the Milky Way.

I think our goal in life is to push ourselves to the limit and always, always question everything.
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