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Old 10-22-2012, 07:01 PM #274
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Originally Posted by Kellster View Post
There's no such thing as a goal or "aiming." Life is not teleological, it's irrational and arbitrary. No one ever achieves anything. Progress is fictional and it's a product of human beings coping with their existence within space.
I disagree. Achievement of goals may have no intrinsic value, but depending on the person they can have a great deal of utility. The goals that we set and achieve sustain us in society and allow us to live the way we want. Without goals and working towards the things we want, how would we ever be comfortable with our lives. We'd all be homeless and living on the streets.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:02 PM #275
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- idiots.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:05 PM #276
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Nevermind being comfortable in our own lives, without progress we wouldn't even be talking to each other on this forum.

Technological progress is what brought us from the stone age into the modern era. It's what put a man on the moon. It's what makes you able to ride in a ****ing airplane across the ocean with the comfort of air conditioning and tv screens in the headrest.

Evolution is a form of progress.

To say that any form of progress or achievement is fictional and it's something humans create to cope with existing is stupid.
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Originally Posted by NinjaMouse:But as a poster in this thread, all I can say is good ****ing luck to whoever wants to try to knock you off the #1 spot. That will take something epic. It would be the upset of the posting season.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:07 PM #277
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Kellster actually posts some interesting **** on occasion, I just never have the time to read up enough on it.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:12 PM #278
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Originally Posted by SmartyJones View Post
I disagree. Achievement of goals may have no intrinsic value, but depending on the person they can have a great deal of utility. The goals that we set and achieve sustain us in society and allow us to live the way we want. Without goals and working towards the things we want, how would we ever be comfortable with our lives. We'd all be homeless and living on the streets.
Goals are based on the idea of ascendancy, which isn't "real" in the sense that it's written into the universe; it's a historical concept that developed over centuries, especially through the boom of humanist thinking in the Enlightenment.

Here in the US, my "goal" may be to graduate college and get a high paying job. But if I grew up in Liberia instead of the US, my goal might be just to eat every day. Humans aren't motivated by goals, we're motivated by will.

We may come together under an economic system to produce the means for societal life, but our ideas are always the product of a material world, meaning that they're based in reality, not in an idealistic Platonic forms sense.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:13 PM #279
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:19 PM #280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellster View Post

Goals are based on the idea of ascendancy, which isn't "real" in the sense that it's written into the universe; it's a historical concept that developed over centuries, especially through the boom of humanist thinking in the Enlightenment.

Here in the US, my "goal" may be to graduate college and get a high paying job. But if I grew up in Liberia instead of the US, my goal might be just to eat every day. Humans aren't motivated by goals, we're motivated by will.

We may come together under an economic system to produce the means for societal life, but our ideas are always the product of a material world, meaning that they're based in reality, not in an idealistic Platonic forms sense.
****, took the words out of my mouth.

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Old 10-22-2012, 07:21 PM #281
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****, took the words out of my mouth.

lololol
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Originally Posted by NinjaMouse:But as a poster in this thread, all I can say is good ****ing luck to whoever wants to try to knock you off the #1 spot. That will take something epic. It would be the upset of the posting season.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:25 PM #282
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:26 PM #283
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:28 PM #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellster View Post
Goals are based on the idea of ascendancy, which isn't "real" in the sense that it's written into the universe; it's a historical concept that developed over centuries, especially through the boom of humanist thinking in the Enlightenment.

Here in the US, my "goal" may be to graduate college and get a high paying job. But if I grew up in Liberia instead of the US, my goal might be just to eat every day. Humans aren't motivated by goals, we're motivated by will.

We may come together under an economic system to produce the means for societal life, but our ideas are always the product of a material world, meaning that they're based in reality, not in an idealistic Platonic forms sense.
Goals may be relative, but they are still necessary for survival. The goals of our ancestors are why our goals aren't just to eat every day. In their very simplest form, goals are merely the desire and effort to improve oneself. The desire to improve is a very real thing indeed.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:29 PM #285
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You should practice using people as targets
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Originally Posted by NinjaMouse:But as a poster in this thread, all I can say is good ****ing luck to whoever wants to try to knock you off the #1 spot. That will take something epic. It would be the upset of the posting season.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:32 PM #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paintnoob13 View Post
Kellster actually posts some interesting **** on occasion, I just never have the time to read up enough on it.
Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellster View Post
Goals are based on the idea of ascendancy, which isn't "real" in the sense that it's written into the universe; it's a historical concept that developed over centuries, especially through the boom of humanist thinking in the Enlightenment.

Here in the US, my "goal" may be to graduate college and get a high paying job. But if I grew up in Liberia instead of the US, my goal might be just to eat every day. Humans aren't motivated by goals, we're motivated by will.

We may come together under an economic system to produce the means for societal life, but our ideas are always the product of a material world, meaning that they're based in reality, not in an idealistic Platonic forms sense.

See: Smartys post

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartyJones View Post
Goals may be relative, but they are still necessary for survival. The goals of our ancestors are why our goals aren't just to eat every day. In their very simplest form, goals are merely the desire and effort to improve oneself. The desire to improve is a very real thing indeed.


This would be my response to Kellys post. While goals may not be what drives us, it certainly sets up for advancement, and once thigns advance (i.e. technology) it becomes a very real thing.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:32 PM #287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartyJones View Post
Goals may be relative, but they are still necessary for survival. The goals of our ancestors are why our goals aren't just to eat every day. In their very simplest form, goals are merely the desire and effort to improve oneself. The desire to improve is a very real thing indeed.
“I must study politics and war, that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy, natural history and naval architecture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, tapestry, and porcelain.”
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:40 PM #288
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Nevermind being comfortable in our own lives, without progress we wouldn't even be talking to each other on this forum.

Technological progress is what brought us from the stone age into the modern era. It's what put a man on the moon. It's what makes you able to ride in a ****ing airplane across the ocean with the comfort of air conditioning and tv screens in the headrest.

Evolution is a form of progress.

To say that any form of progress or achievement is fictional and it's something humans create to cope with existing is stupid.
No one in serious historical academic circles would accept that idea of progress. History is the narrative statement of happenings in the past. That's the definition of history.

Progress is just a word for a concept that developed over hundreds of years. I'll try and explain some of the history of the narrative of progress to you briefly:

After Socrates, Western philosophy began to think about events in genealogical terms. Per historian Frederick J. Teggart, "... a genealogy has three elements: a person present or spoken of; a series of ancestors; and a specific 'first' individual, source, or origin."

Using this methodology, Greeks began explaining things in general according to Socratic logical method, which is dictated by teleological laws. Teleology means something working towards an end.

With this idea in mind, Aristotle announced that teleology is the true mode of approach to the study of nature. "The explanation of a thing is reached only when we are able to view it in the light of a purpose. All movement is directed toward some end, and becomes intelligible only when this end has been discovered and defined." We have to see something's life cycle in order to understand it.

Eventually, this teleological way of thinking was used to observe society through an analogy with the human body. Basically, we think of humans as beings that go through life and learn things that they use throughout their life to their benefit. Thus, human advancement goes through a determined cycle. This same way of thinking was applied to society and nations.

Classical historians began ascribing "change" in the way that a human changes, to the progress of the race. Like humans, societies learn and progress towards an end. In Rome, under the rule of the emperor Trajan, the historian Florus asked his readers to consider the Roman people "as if it were one man."

Basically, he asked us to think of Rome as going through a life cycle in the same way that humans do; there's a "birth" of Rome and a "death" of Rome. It passes through birth, adolescence, maturity, and old age. There's an idea of progress from beginning to end. Thus, when you're undertaking endeavors that "benefit" the race, you're contributing to the progress of your society.

This analogy reappears in the Renaissance in the thinking of philosophers like Descartes and Pascal and develops through modern times. I could go further in explaining it, but you get the idea.

The point is that progress is just a theoretical model that developed in human thinking over the course of centuries. And it's not accurate because nation-states aren't humans. They don't have life cycles. There is no idealistic end.
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Last edited by Kellster : 10-22-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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Old 10-22-2012, 07:49 PM #289
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Goals may be relative, but they are still necessary for survival. The goals of our ancestors are why our goals aren't just to eat every day. In their very simplest form, goals are merely the desire and effort to improve oneself. The desire to improve is a very real thing indeed.
You're basically saying that if people don't have an end in mind, they have an inability to act within space. I don't agree with that at all.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:04 PM #290
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****, took the words out of my mouth.

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Old 10-22-2012, 08:16 PM #291
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Speaking of, guy at the range had a hunting crossbow and it was my first time shooting one where the bolts didn't have suction cup tips, holy **** me want.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:43 PM #292
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Depends. If we're talking about people who's parents are the 1% there are probably quite a few. I think it is $400k/year? If you're talking about actual, self made people, there's probably only a tiny handful. Simon is pretty 1%.
I believe it was $343k/year. Of course, the 1% based off of net worth is likely a very different story when compared to basing it off of yearly net income.

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Who the **** is that wannabe nutritionist *******?
A ****ing tard, just like most everybody else.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:43 PM #293
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Kellster is being a pedantic twat.
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Old 10-22-2012, 08:49 PM #294
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Kellster IS a pedantic twat.
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