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Old 10-12-2012, 12:59 AM #22
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of course you may be giving the american electorate a compliment for basing their decisions off of policy and not whether or not someone is "boorish" or "rude."

But in that case I'd argue you're giving them too much credit...
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Old 10-12-2012, 01:26 AM #23
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You should watch it, LTK. Biden clobbered Ryan. He just looked like a dick in doing so, because he had to spend a lot of time calling Ryan out on all his BS. I'm assuming this is why Obama did not do this to Romney. Everyone would have thought he was an *******, where as Biden (As VP) can play that role just fine, so long as his and Obama's policy and the real substance of the issues fall in their favor. Which it all did tonight. Overwhelmingly.
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:20 AM #24
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Romney didn't interrupt President Obama like Biden did to Ryan. Biden repeatedly cut into Ryan's responses. He smirked. He laughed. He acted like a generally boorish clown and many people were turned off by it.

What Biden did was make a play for the Democratic base. He succeeded in that respect. In the larger picture, Ryan gave respectful, measured, and well intoned responses to the questions posed by the moderator. He did well with both his base and the electorate at large, which is why he got a slight edge in the post-debate polling compared to Biden.

When it came to style, Ryan won because he was considerate, courteous, well spoken, and calm. They more or less fought to a draw on the "substance".
Ryan also continuously lied his *** off. I'm sorry, but I'd rather have someone be a little aggressive and possibly boorish while telling me the truth than to have someone be calm and measured while attempting to shovel bull**** down my throat.

Vice presidents are supposed to be the bulldogs for the administration, saying things and pushing points harder than the president is generally able to. I thought Biden was laying it on pretty thick occasionally, but it was often to call out Ryan in real time for lying. Boorish, maybe. Necessary, maybe.
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Old 10-12-2012, 05:21 AM #25
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Yep. Not a single person I've heard complaining about Biden's misdemeanor has brought up a single point about the debate or the substance therein.

On a logical level, Biden obliderated Ryan in the use of facts, or close enough, to prove his points. He didn't resort to the Zinger! Ryan pulled to try and get attention.

On an emotional level, Biden seemed a bit over the top but, in my eyes, that's a good thing. I'd rather have a political representative, at any level, that shows emotion and compassion about politics and debating that someone who can perfectly keep their composure and blow smoke out of their ***.

On a body language level, the alpha male Biden was clearly pushing Ryan away a bit. His voice is louder and more commanding, he appears bigger (on camera at least), and his actions clearly has Ryan giving way in the bits where they were both talking over each other. I noticed that.

So while I see this debate not doing much in the long run, I do see it slightly leaning towards Biden. The fact checkers seem to be tearing Ryan apart right now and Biden just did an all around good job. Neither one of them ran away with it, from the public's point of view, and I expect it will remain the same.

Now, onto next week's debate, and how they use this debate as fuel for their fires.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:08 AM #26
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It was pretty obvious what happened... Biden did what hardcore leftists do, and I'm sure hardcore leftists loved the performance. Problem is, that is exactly what is wrong with our country.

We need moderation. Far right OR far left is too extreme, the public wants the middle.

Biden proved once and for all that this administration is extreme far left. Period. And they will mock, ridicule, and be extremely rude to their "friends" on the right.

It is no wonder they got ZERO republican votes for Obamacare, when they act like that.

Where Romney has proven that he can work on both sides of the isle. And actually get things done.

Obama owns the fact that the embassy in Libya was attacked and had guards with rubber bullets instead of real ammo... (foreign guards no less). He caused our soil to be attacked by his spiking of the football concerning killing OBL at the DNC convention. And said that Al Qaeda was destroyed. So of course they had to answer. And did he protect our interests abroad. Nope.

Then lied and blamed it on a youtube video, which Biden doubled down on AGAIN last night... Guess he didn't know they left that one in the dust, as the public is smarter than that...

Don't worry, Biden sounds exactly like a host of MSNBC with his far left drivel, and the public polling will show that he lost the debate by letting the country see his hardcore leftist tactics.

Americans don't like jerks, and that is exactly how biden came across last night. He alienated every single moderate and anyone on the right with his "performance".

Which is exactly what I expected from gaffebiden...


Ryan did great, was thoughtful, clearly was respectful to everyone in the room, even the bully next to him, as biden kept misrepresenting him and building elaborate straw man arguments at every turn, and calling him names like a typical liberal. While not letting him talk without interrupting.

Ryan points out that every time we lower taxes, revenue increases to the government... Because as I have said many times before. "if you tax something more, you get less of it, if you tax something less, you get more of it".

Really not a hard concept to grasp, and Ryan points it out, and biden acts like it has never happened... And then Ryan lists Presidents who actually DID exactly that. And what does Biden do? He strawmans and says "so now you are kennedy"...

That is what liberals do, they can't argue facts, instead they create a totally different reality.

I call it liberality...It has nothing to do with the discussion. Ryan wasn't saying he was Kennedy, he was proving biden wrong, by giving an example of a democrat who lowered taxes and because of that, saw an INCREASE in the amount the government brought in, as revenues went up.




Biden caused the democrats to lose more votes with that garbage... People don't like a bully.

Being wrong is OK, but being a jerk when you are a heartbeat away from the Presidency is unacceptable.

But, I'm sure the liberal hacks loved it...
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:15 AM #27
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Not sure where you all are getting the idea that polling shows Ryan won, aside from that one CNN snap poll of more Republicans than Democrats in which the difference is within the margin, every poll shows Biden crushed him.

And he did. It's not going to get any better for Ryan once the fact-checking melts down trying to catalog all his lies.
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It was pretty obvious what happened... Biden did what hardcore leftists do, and I'm sure hardcore leftists loved the performance. Problem is, that is exactly what is wrong with our country.

We need moderation. Far right OR far left is too extreme, the public wants the middle.

Biden proved once and for all that this administration is extreme far left. Period. And they will mock, ridicule, and be extremely rude to their "friends" on the right.

It is no wonder they got ZERO republican votes for Obamacare, when they act like that.

Where Romney has proven that he can work on both sides of the isle. And actually get things done.

Obama owns the fact that the embassy in Libya was attacked and had guards with rubber bullets instead of real ammo... (foreign guards no less). He caused our soil to be attacked by his spiking of the football concerning killing OBL at the DNC convention. And said that Al Qaeda was destroyed. So of course they had to answer. And did he protect our interests abroad. Nope.

Then lied and blamed it on a youtube video, which Biden doubled down on AGAIN last night... Guess he didn't know they left that one in the dust, as the public is smarter than that...

Don't worry, Biden sounds exactly like a host of MSNBC with his far left drivel, and the public polling will show that he lost the debate by letting the country see his hardcore leftist tactics.

Americans don't like jerks, and that is exactly how biden came across last night. He alienated every single moderate and anyone on the right with his "performance".

Which is exactly what I expected from gaffebiden...


Ryan did great, was thoughtful, clearly was respectful to everyone in the room, even the bully next to him, as biden kept misrepresenting him and building elaborate straw man arguments at every turn, and calling him names like a typical liberal. While not letting him talk without interrupting.

Ryan points out that every time we lower taxes, revenue increases to the government... Because as I have said many times before. "if you tax something more, you get less of it, if you tax something less, you get more of it".

Really not a hard concept to grasp, and Ryan points it out, and biden acts like it has never happened... And then Ryan lists Presidents who actually DID exactly that. And what does Biden do? He strawmans and says "so now you are kennedy"...

That is what liberals do, they can't argue facts, instead they create a totally different reality.

I call it liberality...It has nothing to do with the discussion. Ryan wasn't saying he was Kennedy, he was proving biden wrong, by giving an example of a democrat who lowered taxes and because of that, saw an INCREASE in the amount the government brought in, as revenues went up.




Biden caused the democrats to lose more votes with that garbage... People don't like a bully.

Being wrong is OK, but being a jerk when you are a heartbeat away from the Presidency is unacceptable.

But, I'm sure the liberal hacks loved it...
Both parties can't control their spending. The only difference is what they spend it on. Either way Americans are getting screwed. My vote will be anti-establishment.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:24 AM #28
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That is a vote for Obama...

good luck with that.

We have TWO viable candidates. Not 3. Voting "anti-establisment" is ignorance. If you don't like the system we have, work to change it from the inside, don't throw your vote to bigger government.

Republicans are the party that actually did a balanced budget under newt (that liberals love to claim was because of clinton...yeah right). Democrats have proved that they don't need budgets...

The tea party is moving into power, and the tea party is pushing for a government that lives within their means. So if you want to actually do something that helps instead of hurts. Vote tea party.

Throwing your vote away with a third party is weak in our current state of our country.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:34 AM #29
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That will be just fine if Obama wins. Obama isn't banging the war drum quite as loudly as the GOP is these days. You won't be able to tell a difference either way. The country will simply acquire more debt. At least Obama will give a little back (welfare). Besides after the way the GOP rigged the conventions and stacked the deck against Ron Paul to deny him a chance to speak, they deserve to lose. That's no way to treat an honorable man like Ron Paul who as served this country with a distinguished record. Romney's own state (Massachusetts) is voting against him. Can't blame em for not wanting a neocon.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:41 AM #30
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Obama already spent 6 trillion...

And you think MORE spending like that is a good thing...

Unreal.

That is what is wrong with Ron Paul supporters, they just aren't rational. Romney isn't a conservative, but he does know how to run a business. And the federal government is the biggest "business" in the world.

To think they are both "the same" is pathetic, and very far from reality.


maybe you think this is all just a joke? like biden?...
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:50 AM #31
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Romney isn't a conservative
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:06 AM #32
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Ryan was lost because of his ticket not having any actual plan. He instead was dancing around questions while Biden feasted on his tears. Ryan needs to leave the chameleon stuff to Romney.
Ryan danced around the question? Biden danced around the first question like it was the tango.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:16 AM #33
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The moderator very specifically asked Ryan to say how he planned to spend money more than once and he couldn't do it. He then backed into a, "Oh, **** the Libs they don't work together but we do." and used his point of making it later as an attack against the Dems.

Even when asked very specifically more than once, Ryan could not answer specific questions voters have had for a while now.

While they both did plenty of it, Ryan proved himself very clearly at that point in time.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:18 AM #34
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Ryan danced around the question? Biden danced around the first question like it was the tango.
Ryan dodged questions all night long and it is my opinion that Biden won this debate. The moderator was even getting frustrated trying to get Ryan to answer honestly. Keep in mind though that I'm not taking up for Biden. I disagree with dem spending just as much as rep spending. Both will leave the next generation farther in the hole. We need real spending cuts and fair tax.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:36 AM #35
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I see many people enjoy their politics when it is mixed with WWF style shenanigans.


I ask, dear countrymen, what ever happened to the polite gentleman's debate? Save the insults for afterwards, and duel for your honor.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:45 AM #36
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That will be just fine if Obama wins. Obama isn't banging the war drum quite as loudly as the GOP is these days. You won't be able to tell a difference either way. The country will simply acquire more debt. At least Obama will give a little back (welfare). Besides after the way the GOP rigged the conventions and stacked the deck against Ron Paul to deny him a chance to speak, they deserve to lose. That's no way to treat an honorable man like Ron Paul who as served this country with a distinguished record. Romney's own state (Massachusetts) is voting against him. Can't blame em for not wanting a neocon.
Oh man, my wife has a friend that was a big Paul supporter in Texas, and hearing about the stuff the Romney people were pulling...

I understand why Paul supporters would stay home or vote for anyone but Romney.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:11 AM #37
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I see many people enjoy their politics when it is mixed with WWF style shenanigans.


I ask, dear countrymen, what ever happened to the polite gentleman's debate? Save the insults for afterwards, and duel for your honor.
Didn't the early congress often get in fights?
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:12 AM #38
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I see many people enjoy their politics when it is mixed with WWF style shenanigans.


I ask, dear countrymen, what ever happened to the polite gentleman's debate? Save the insults for afterwards, and duel for your honor.
Civility is dead. Even if such a thing did exist, you aren't going to see it today. Though, I do appreciate leaders who speak with enflamed passion.

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Old 10-12-2012, 09:19 AM #39
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Didn't the early congress often get in fights?
Seeing as people had duels afterwards, I don't doubt it happened. As a whole, we were a much more polite people then.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:37 AM #40
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Seeing as people had duels afterwards, I don't doubt it happened. As a whole, we were a much more polite people then.
I disagree with you wholly and completely sir. People may have been more polite in day to day life but in politics the rhetoric was exaggerated and extreme. People don't go to duels after an exchange of kind words.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:45 AM #41
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Seeing as people had duels afterwards, I don't doubt it happened. As a whole, we were a much more polite people then.
I have a difficult time reconciling dueling with general politeness.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:12 AM #42
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Maybe it existed to blow off the steam?
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