[automagsrule]

Ive been meaning to pose this question for a while. I originally considered making this its own thread but decided not to because
1. I don't know if there is enough substance in this discussion to carry a thread
2. The answer can be greatly influenced by one's faith

So I figured Id just pose the question within the thread. Anyways enough blathering:

What is everyone's opinion in this thread regarding animal rights, animal liberation and veganism?

[RLN]

Never really thought about it. I don't believe in being cruel to animals. But I love to eat meat and I hope to learn how to hunt one day so people may say I am cruel and a hypocrite. By the way I like my veggies too.

[vijil]

We are called to be good stewards of creation, and it's clear that biblical characters (including Jesus) ate meat.

As such there is no biblical mandate for veganism or vegetarianism on a moral level, though I would argue that there is a mandate not to overfish or hunt to extinction as this constitutes bad stewardship. Animal rights and liberation are not found in scripture beyond this.

That's the strictly Christian point of view, which I follow. I don't think there's anything *wrong* with veganism, though it certainly is unhealthy if not done carefully - and we're not supposed to abuse ourselves.

Back to rights and liberation - biblically, humans are dominant, and we have been given dominion over nature. In that sense it is a non issue so long as stewardship is observed.

However rights/liberation types are normally more interested in animal suffering and alleviating it. The fact is however that the vast majority of fauna do not "feel" pain in the sense that we do - they have a certain response to a pain input, but are not capable of being aware of the fact they are feeling pain because they are not self aware in the first place. In all likelihood there are less than ten animals that can actually do this as we do. As such, pain for them is not the same as pain for us. Our empathic response (which can be very strong depending on the fluffy cuteness of the animal in question) is largely irrelevant.

The level at which an animal feels pain varies depending on the animal. Humans *experience* pain, and appear to be the only creatures (besides maybe dolphins and whales and one or two apes) that actually do so. It goes on a scale all the way down to insects, which don't feel pain any more than a computer program "feels" like saying "hello world". It's just pure input>output, stimulus>response. You cannot torture a snail even in theory - they are programmed to squirm and try to get away, but they feel no pain. A dog feels a version of pain that is closer to us, but is still *very* different - we empathise, but our empathy is based on false assumptions. A dolphin or whale can on the other hand be genuinely tortured.

The main reason to be nice to animals is actually because cruelty harms us psychologically. I mean just thinking about it sucks . I definitely don't support it.

[automagsrule]

what is your opinion of the Christian Vegetarian movement? they assert there was no death or suffering before the fall and there is no death or suffering in heaven so they choose not to perpetuate it here on earth. Also they often quote 1 Cor 6:9 and the like "your body is a temple" and then link many of the health benefits of a vegan Mediterranean diet.

Also what is your opinion regarding those who oppose veg*nism based on 1 Timothy 4:1-5 which says abstaining from food provided by God (expressly meat in some translations, I haven't read the original Greek text to discern which is more accurate) is to be led astray.

edit: also pigs are on the short list of self aware animals, yet factory farming practices mutilate and kill them by the millions each year. How do you feel about that?

[procyonwarrior]

All I know is God made me with teeth to chew meat, a stomach to digest it and a tongue that loves it!

We are called to be setwards of the earth and even our bodies. Can you over do it with eating meat and not enough vegs. SURE YOU CAN but your body can also loose the ability to digest foods by taking supplements. I know too many vegan people who have no energy at all, and I know too many meat eaters that have limited energy as well. Eat well, stay active, live long.

[vijil]

I have no problem with Christians who are vegetarians, but when they assert that vegetarianism is more holy or better or whatever (and thereby subtly assert that eating meat is less holy) they are stepping well outside the bounds of both biblical and rational authority.

The lack of death and suffering before the fall is completely irrelevant. It's a massive and unjustified theological stretch to get from that to preaching vegetarianism. If God meant us to take it that way, Jesus or one of the apostles would have preached it as they had exactly the same information. They didn't, nor were they vegetarian. They showed no signs of even beginning to think that way.

I don't have problems with killing self aware animals, done sustainably. Our primary moral duty is towards humans and God.

[xDarkk]

Originally Posted by vijil

We are called to be good stewards of creation, and it's clear that biblical characters (including Jesus) ate meat.

As such there is no biblical mandate for veganism or vegetarianism on a moral level, though I would argue that there is a mandate not to overfish or hunt to extinction as this constitutes bad stewardship. Animal rights and liberation are not found in scripture beyond this.

That's the strictly Christian point of view, which I follow. I don't think there's anything *wrong* with veganism, though it certainly is unhealthy if not done carefully - and we're not supposed to abuse ourselves.

Back to rights and liberation - biblically, humans are dominant, and we have been given dominion over nature. In that sense it is a non issue so long as stewardship is observed.

However rights/liberation types are normally more interested in animal suffering and alleviating it. The fact is however that the vast majority of fauna do not "feel" pain in the sense that we do - they have a certain response to a pain input, but are not capable of being aware of the fact they are feeling pain because they are not self aware in the first place. In all likelihood there are less than ten animals that can actually do this as we do. As such, pain for them is not the same as pain for us. Our empathic response (which can be very strong depending on the fluffy cuteness of the animal in question) is largely irrelevant.

The level at which an animal feels pain varies depending on the animal. Humans *experience* pain, and appear to be the only creatures (besides maybe dolphins and whales and one or two apes) that actually do so. It goes on a scale all the way down to insects, which don't feel pain any more than a computer program "feels" like saying "hello world". It's just pure input>output, stimulus>response. You cannot torture a snail even in theory - they are programmed to squirm and try to get away, but they feel no pain. A dog feels a version of pain that is closer to us, but is still *very* different - we empathise, but our empathy is based on false assumptions. A dolphin or whale can on the other hand be genuinely tortured.

The main reason to be nice to animals is actually because cruelty harms us psychologically. I mean just thinking about it sucks . I definitely don't support it.

Originally Posted by procyonwarrior

All I know is God made me with teeth to chew meat, a stomach to digest it and a tongue that loves it!

We are called to be setwards of the earth and even our bodies. Can you over do it with eating meat and not enough vegs. SURE YOU CAN but your body can also loose the ability to digest foods by taking supplements. I know too many vegan people who have no energy at all, and I know too many meat eaters that have limited energy as well. Eat well, stay active, live long.

Originally Posted by vijil

I have no problem with Christians who are vegetarians, but when they assert that vegetarianism is more holy or better or whatever (and thereby subtly assert that eating meat is less holy) they are stepping well outside the bounds of both biblical and rational authority.

The lack of death and suffering before the fall is completely irrelevant. It's a massive and unjustified theological stretch to get from that to preaching vegetarianism. If God meant us to take it that way, Jesus or one of the apostles would have preached it as they had exactly the same information. They didn't, nor were they vegetarian. They showed no signs of even beginning to think that way.

I don't have problems with killing self aware animals, done sustainably. Our primary moral duty is towards humans and God.

Good question automags

I have to agree with what is being said here. I really don't have much to contribute...other than the fact that I LOVE a good steak cooked medium rare

[duos_scythe]

There is a place for all of God's creatures, on my dinner plate next to my mashed potatoes.

Genesis 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

We are stewards of God's creation, including human life.
I have no problem when people chose not to eat this or that based on health, or preference. But when they say it is for religious reasons I get a big red flag. I did a 21 day Daniel Fast (no meat, dairy, sugars etc.) and it really opened my eyes to how food can become a block to our spiritual walk. Most of us (Americans) do not ever really have the feeling of hunger, we stuff our faces full of whatever we can pop a lid on or zap in the microwave. If we took the time we stuff are faces and start feeding ourselves with The Living Word we would be better off in our faith and our waistlines would more than likely be smaller.


I also love a good medium rare Delmonico marbled steak on a charcoal grill, with some asparagus on the side.




So I'm thinking about selling off the pump cocker I just finished less than a month ago to fund getting a tablet. Going to be amping up my Biblical training and thinking about taking some classes. So if you know anyone looking for a cocker pump.... let me know. Still on the fence though.

[xDarkk]

Originally Posted by duos_scythe

There is a place for all of God's creatures, on my dinner plate next to my mashed potatoes.

Lol

I also love a good medium rare Delmonico marbled steak on a charcoal grill, with some asparagus on the side.

Well I just ate breakfast and now I am hungry again...


So I'm thinking about selling off the pump cocker I just finished less than a month ago to fund getting a tablet. Going to be amping up my Biblical training and thinking about taking some classes. So if you know anyone looking for a cocker pump.... let me know. Still on the fence though.

I can post in pump OT and see if any of the guys there are interested. If you make a thread for it pm me

I don't have class until 2 today! boom.

[duos_scythe]

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=3946076

[UM_Midman87]

Good morning, brothers. What is the criteria to join this group?

[procyonwarrior]

Originally Posted by automagsrule

Ive been meaning to pose this question for a while. I originally considered making this its own thread but decided not to because
1. I don't know if there is enough substance in this discussion to carry a thread
2. The answer can be greatly influenced by one's faith

So I figured Id just pose the question within the thread. Anyways enough blathering:

What is everyone's opinion in this thread regarding animal rights, animal liberation and veganism?

So I'm late to the question and I might repeat what others have said. But, animals don't have rights, they don't vote. I'm not trying to make a joke but I fail to see how animals have "rights" to me rights are things established for people by people. Some rights are of course God give, which almost every single founding father believed in. However, a people who does respect life should respect all matters of life, whether it is a human life or animal or even a thing that does not think, such as a tree. As some, I'm sure have mentioned, we are called to be stewards of God's creation and God has given us dominion over such creation. The problem is when people claim animals have more rights then humans or treat animals better then they treat other people. When that happens we have come to a place when human life is not valued and yet it was "man" that was created in the image of God, not a dog or some other animal. And so there is a distinction between humans and other animals. To say that mankind is just another living animal on earth is great depreciation of the very image of God.

[automagsrule]

Originally Posted by procyonwarrior

So I'm late to the question and I might repeat what others have said. But, animals don't have rights, they don't vote. I'm not trying to make a joke but I fail to see how animals have "rights" to me rights are things established for people by people. Some rights are of course God give, which almost every single founding father believed in. However, a people who does respect life should respect all matters of life, whether it is a human life or animal or even a thing that does not think, such as a tree. As some, I'm sure have mentioned, we are called to be stewards of God's creation and God has given us dominion over such creation. The problem is when people claim animals have more rights then humans or treat animals better then they treat other people. When that happens we have come to a place when human life is not valued and yet it was "man" that was created in the image of God, not a dog or some other animal. And so there is a distinction between humans and other animals. To say that mankind is just another living animal on earth is great depreciation of the very image of God.

Animals clearly have rights, such as the right to not be subjected to unnecessary cruelty. People claiming animal rights activists want to put animals above humans are setting up straw man arguments.

Also I'll assert that because livestock farming is so inefficient and wasteful, good stewardship of the planet would be a vegan diet.

[vijil]

Animals clearly have rights, such as the right to not be subjected to unnecessary cruelty.

You need to qualify this statement. There is nothing clear about it. There is no biblical basis for it, nor is there any obvious rational basis (unless we consider the UN position to be gospel). If anything it's not even possible to be "cruel" to most animals given that only a very few can suffer in any real sense. Chickens certainly can't, nor can fish. Pigs may be able to, but the jury is out on that one. Heck that might be part of why the Jews weren't meant to eat pork!

Many animal rights activists genuinely do want to put animals above humans - PETA leaders have specifically stated that they consider animal lives more valuable than human lives. There is nothing strawman about it.

As for livestock farming being inefficient, it's true that animals must normally be fed with plants thus adding an extra step. However that comes down to how you define stewardship. Is the goal to minimise human impact on nature? There is no reason to think so. Is it to maximise the utility we humans get from nature in a sustainable way? Probably, yes. Is enjoying the food we eat and having variety part of that utility? No reason to think not.

Here's the thing: there is no good reason to be an animal rights person slash vegan from a Christian perspective. None. If you want to go that way it'll be for other reasons, which in my experience are great at sidetracking people from their faith. Don't get me wrong I do the same sometimes, but we need to be careful what we get passionate or self righteous about.

[xDarkk]

Originally Posted by vijil

You need to qualify this statement. There is nothing clear about it. There is no biblical basis for it, nor is there any obvious rational basis (unless we consider the UN position to be gospel). If anything it's not even possible to be "cruel" to most animals given that only a very few can suffer in any real sense. Chickens certainly can't, nor can fish. Pigs may be able to, but the jury is out on that one. Heck that might be part of why the Jews weren't meant to eat pork!

Many animal rights activists genuinely do want to put animals above humans - PETA leaders have specifically stated that they consider animal lives more valuable than human lives. There is nothing strawman about it.

As for livestock farming being inefficient, it's true that animals must normally be fed with plants thus adding an extra step. However that comes down to how you define stewardship. Is the goal to minimise human impact on nature? There is no reason to think so. Is it to maximise the utility we humans get from nature in a sustainable way? Probably, yes. Is enjoying the food we eat and having variety part of that utility? No reason to think not.

Here's the thing: there is no good reason to be an animal rights person slash vegan from a Christian perspective. None. If you want to go that way it'll be for other reasons, which in my experience are great at sidetracking people from their faith. Don't get me wrong I do the same sometimes, but we need to be careful what we get passionate or self righteous about.

preach.

[automagsrule]

I was mostly alluding to animal cruelty laws. And animal farming as we know it is not currently sustainable.

I also do think there are biblical reasons for Veganism. Not necessarily for ethical reasons, but for health and environmental reasons.

[vijil]

If it can be demonstrated that Veganism is in fact healthier, then that's a possible argument in favour, but it certainly doesn't justify any assertion that Christians should be vegan.

Apparently our current farming system doesn't work, yup. That doesn't necessarily support full veganism as it would support things like rethinking how we do said farming and maybe trying to cut meat back to once a week or so - which is apparently healthier than both extremes anyway. We are omnomnomnivores after all.

Regarding farming, my Mom used to work as a research scientist on a 100% automated dairy farm. Robot milking machines that milked the cows just whenever they felt like it, automatic irrigation etc. etc. - you could leave it unattended for months and it was incredibly good in terms of land area, resource consumption and animal happiness (as well as these things can be measured). Mom said that as far as they could tell the cows as happy as any cow ever. That sort of thing is the way to go, not dropping animal farming altogether.

[duos_scythe]

Originally Posted by UM_Midman87

Good morning, brothers. What is the criteria to join this group?

The real question is based on your location... Roll Tide or War Eagle? (Roll Tide for me)
Was in Mobile Christmas of 2011. Love it there!

To join just read the, first posts on the thread, that will get you started.

[UM_Midman87]

Originally Posted by duos_scythe

The real question is based on your location... Roll Tide or War Eagle? (Roll Tide for me)
Was in Mobile Christmas of 2011. Love it there!

To join just read the, first posts on the thread, that will get you started.

Yeah, it's pretty nice here. Definitely a War Eagle on my end!

I have read and agreed to the conduct post.

[duos_scythe]

Well we can agree to disagree on sports but know that Christ is Lord of all no matter what.
What church do you go to? My wife's "adopted" father is the pastor of Anchor
Assembly in Bayou La Batre And her friend and friend's husband does Teen Challenge in the area.

[UM_Midman87]

Originally Posted by duos_scythe

Well we can agree to disagree on sports but know that Christ is Lord of all no matter what.
What church do you go to? My wife's "adopted" father is the pastor of Anchor
Assembly in Bayou La Batre And her friend and friend's husband does Teen Challenge in the area.

I can live with that compromise, and I wholeheartedly agree. I am the Children's pastor at Parkway Southern Baptist in Mobile.