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Old 10-10-2012, 02:48 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barrel roll View Post
He is arguing that just because you get 4 more years of training for a career as an XYZ, it doesn't mean you are educated. The purpose of higher education isn't to train you for a career, it is to further develop the individual.
Thank you. I suck at putting things simply
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:49 PM #23
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No, because the only thing person 2 has going for them is being black and went to school with dumber people.
I never said person 2 was black....that's the point. People score poorly in inner cities and in the rural country side, regardless of race. Coincidendtly, blacks perform almost identically well as their white counterparts if they come from affluent families in the suburbs.

Personally, I think it's perfectly fair. Person 2 showed a nack for education and pushed themselves well beyond their peers despite all of the additional obsticles person 1 didn't have to face. Person 2 scored in the top 10% despite violence, gang presence, crime, drugs, lack of resources and bad teachers.

Suburbia doesn't have any of those problems in mass, and is mostly isolated from it. I think if a person can ignore those outside influences, beat their odds and their peers, I think they deserve a chance at higher education.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:52 PM #24
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Does gang violence really make you get a B instead of an A though? Is all that matters being the biggest fish even in a small pond?
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:06 PM #25
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It has to do in relation to one's peers. Plus, anybody with a 4.0 gets into whatever school they want (excluding Ivy League and other exclusive schools if you're an out-of-state student).

So here's a more accurate example:

Person 1: White, suburbia, scores a 3.2 GPA, 1600 SAT score. In the top 25% of their class.
Person 2: Black, inner city Detroit, scores a 2.9 GPA, 1550 SAT score. Top 10% of their class.

Person 1 doesn't get in, person 2 does. Do you think this is fair?
This is perfectly fair. The difference between these two students academically is slim at best and both fall within the same range. So this is exactly the kind of time when other factors make the difference.

This is the thing about affirmative action, beneficiaries have to make the grade in the first place, they can't miss the cut like example in the OP and have race change that.

By the way:

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I never said person 2 was black....that's the point.
I think you did say person 2 was black (see above).
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:09 PM #26
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So because the demographic has a ****ty culture, it gives them an edge over someone with better grades from a demographic that is socially acceptable?

How does that even work?

They put "There were gangs at my school." on their application?


Admission should be based on grades. Period.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:16 PM #27
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Admission should be based on grades. Period.
No it shouldn't, grades are just one metric among many that describe a student. Furthermore, the example at hand features two grade and test metrics that are just about the same. Both of those students are B students. So they are a perfect example of when other factors should play quite a large role in determining which of them gets the nod.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:22 PM #28
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Racial quotas need to be ended, and they need to be ended quickly.
Quotas are illegal in public educational institutions.
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:31 PM #29
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No it shouldn't, grades are just one metric among many that describe a student. Furthermore, the example at hand features two grade and test metrics that are just about the same. Both of those students are B students. So they are a perfect example of when other factors should play quite a large role in determining which of them gets the nod.
What other factors?
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Old 10-10-2012, 03:32 PM #30
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What other factors?
Factors other than academic performance, since there is no distinction between the two.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:12 PM #31
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Factors other than academic performance, since there is no distinction between the two.
I think he was asking for specifics.
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:37 PM #32
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Affirmative action doesn't only **** over whites in higher education. If you know of any white firefighters or police officers in big cities, have a rational and honest conversation about affirmative action with them.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:01 PM #33
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What other factors?
I believe this is where the admissions office wants to hear about how the student volunteers time knitting sweaters for orphaned kittens when they aren't playing school sports and attending school political body meetings.

School sports... ugh. How long until the college athlete realizes how they are being used?
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:09 PM #34
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does affirmitive action even hinder any of you? im white, didnt try in HS and still got into the college i wanted. If you got a 3.2 in HS im pretty sure you can get into college

has anyone been unable to attend college because they were white and couldnt make it based on AA?
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:17 PM #35
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Originally Posted by tsbalr120
So because the demographic has a ****ty culture, it gives them an edge over someone with better grades from a demographic that is socially acceptable?

How does that even work?

They put "There were gangs at my school." on their application?

Admission should be based on grades. Period.
It works because otherwise you make the assumption that all schools are created equal, when the reality is that they are not.

Poorly performing school districts are performing that way not due to mere coincidence that a bunch of dumb kids got thrown under one roof; they perform poorly for a number of external factors that the students have to compete with and overcome for 18 years while trying to mature and develop.

If a few of them exceed expectations and show a desire to go into higher Ed, I think there is no reason Universities shouldn't take pride in offering that opportunity.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:27 PM #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt.is.back2011 View Post
It has to do in relation to one's peers. Plus, anybody with a 4.0 gets into whatever school they want (excluding Ivy League and other exclusive schools if you're an out-of-state student).

So here's a more accurate example:

Person 1: White, suburbia, scores a 3.2 GPA, 1600 SAT score. In the top 25% of their class.
Person 2: Black, inner city Detroit, scores a 2.9 GPA, 1550 SAT score. Top 10% of their class.

Person 1 doesn't get in, person 2 does. Do you think this is fair?
Lower GPA, Lower SAT, nope person 1 should have got in before person 2 did.

Color of skin, and where you came from should not be a factor.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:35 PM #37
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Lower GPA, Lower SAT, nope person 1 should have got in before person 2 did.

Color of skin, and where you came from should not be a factor.
I just have to respectfully disagree. Not all schools are the same, and some kids have a much harder time getting through grade school than others by no fault of their own. If they beat the piss out of THEIR peers in grades and scores, I think universities should take notice of that and reward it accordingly.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:34 PM #38
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If they beat the piss out of THEIR peers in grades and scores, I think universities should take notice of that and reward it accordingly.
In this, you are assuming that the peers beyond whom Student 2 excelled set the bar high enough that finishing in the top 10% is even relevant. The same can be said of Student 1's class, of course.

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School sports... ugh. How long until the college athlete realizes how they are being used?
That goes both ways. And then there is the complication thrown in by professional sports leagues which benefit from farm systems for which they pay little to nothing directly.

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Old 10-10-2012, 07:23 PM #39
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Color of skin, and where you came from should not be a factor.
That seems to be what is at stake.

http://theweek.com/article/index/234...on-3-takeaways
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:55 PM #40
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One issue I do find interesting is Kagan's recusal. I'm not sure her prior professional work ought to be grounds for recusal (ethically). In fact I'd say it's arguable that her prior professional work is part and parcel of her substance as a Justice and is nowhere near a true conflict of interest, such as Justice Thomas's family directly benefiting financially from his rulings.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:24 PM #41
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I just have to respectfully disagree. Not all schools are the same, and some kids have a much harder time getting through grade school than others by no fault of their own. If they beat the piss out of THEIR peers in grades and scores, I think universities should take notice of that and reward it accordingly.
I agree the schools are different, but oppositely as you..

I think your average suburban highschool that most of the graduating class are college bound, have more challenging curriculums. With an inner city school (such as chicago) where most of the students are failing, I think the teachers are more lineant and the classes are easier to try help kids pass. Which result in an inflated GPA.

I have to do some research (on my phone atm) but I would be willing to bet standardized test scores support my hypothesis.
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:31 PM #42
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This may help explain why she recused herself:

http://www.scotusblog.com/2012/10/sc...gans-recusals/

"A federal statute requires recusal whenever a federal judge previously served as “counsel” or “adviser” in a case, although it is largely up to each individual Justice to decide when that standard is met."

As a practical matter, do you think it likely that an attorney who has advocated for a position in a specific case, upon appointment as judge (or justice in this case), would vote against the position he/she took as advocate?

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