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Old 10-14-2012, 10:10 PM #232
Horizon
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomdean View Post
I have nothing wrong with you charging $160 a case, hell if you can get away with 5 grand a case go for it, supply and demand. But don't do it under the guise of the high cost being for the customer's benefit, the only thing it is benefiting is your pocket book, and for you to say anything but that is a lie. It's a matter of principle and your ****ty business tactics of misleading the consumer that irritates people. Either you're extremely inept, or are being devious. I think the latter, especially since you sidestepped 90% of my argument and only focused on the parts that, you thought, you could defend. Strawman fallacy, look it up. Actually since you're pretty dull, as shown by your arguments, I'll look it up for you.
Interesting opinion. Did you read one of my earlier posts telling how we lowered our paintball prices at one time and ended up with LESS customers and then when we raised them again participation rose again? That's a pretty good meter for what the customer thinks and how they feel about the benefits of the pricing structure. So you can hypothesize and guess as much as you like. You can call me names and call me a liar if you like (it's a free world), but I've actually gone through the exercise and found out for myself. Since I know it attracts more customers, I'm not going to changing our paintball pricing structure one bit.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:32 PM #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SNAKESNIPER View Post
Because it keeps new players out of the sport, which prevents growth. Also it's not so much a "model" as a straight up ripoff.
Exactly what evidence do you have of this? It's just as easy (and a lot more people have *seen* it) to say that new players get turned off by having a case of paint dumped on their head every match and go away because they don't enjoy being pounded on..and *that* is what's keeping the sport from growing....except, I am not going to pull a baseless assertion out of my *** like that because it's fairly juvenile. If you're comfortable "arguing" like that, fine, but it doesn't make you look good or knowledgeable.


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I don't even live in the same province as Horizon's field. It's geography.
Not material to the point. If you don't like his business model, don't go to his field.

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Believe me, I would never set foot on his field. I recognize a cash-grabbing price gouge when I see it because I know generally how much a field's wholesale price on cases is.
...and you're certainly providing an excellent example of "a little information is a dangerous thing"....you act like you "know" something, but it's fairly evident you don't. A day at a paintball field is about far more than the price of paint. If a facility provides sufficient reasons to return, people will. If it doesn't, they won't. If there's a real problem, the field will close or change. Not every business needs to be Wal-mart (and it's pretty stupid to argue they should).

Quote:
The problem is that first timers will go there, get charged an insane amount and assume paint is that expensive at every field, decide that the sport is too expensive for them and never bother to even try paintball again.
Again, you're making that up. You have less than no evidence of it.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:18 PM #234
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
Interesting opinion. Did you read one of my earlier posts telling how we lowered our paintball prices at one time and ended up with LESS customers and then when we raised them again participation rose again? That's a pretty good meter for what the customer thinks and how they feel about the benefits of the pricing structure. So you can hypothesize and guess as much as you like. You can call me names and call me a liar if you like (it's a free world), but I've actually gone through the exercise and found out for myself. Since I know it attracts more customers, I'm not going to changing our paintball pricing structure one bit.
You're still evading my points, you're still only focusing on the points you think you can win. If you're trying to be persuasive, you're failing miserably. Learn how to argue against someone's whole argument instead of just what you think you are right on. Your evasiveness shows your deviousness so i don't think anyone is going to believe a single word that comes out of your mouth.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:23 PM #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomdean View Post
You're still evading my points, you're still only focusing on the points you think you can win. If you're trying to be persuasive, you're failing miserably. Learn how to argue against someone's whole argument instead of just what you think you are right on. Your evasiveness shows your deviousness so i don't think anyone is going to believe a single word that comes out of your mouth.
I don't know what you mean. Give me a single question to answer and as long as it doesn't require a huge essay to answer and does not include my releasing financial statement information or specific costs of my business (because no business will give out that information on a public forum to strangers obviously) I will do my best to answer. But I'm going to guess that whatever truthful answer I give you, you are going to say I am lying or sidestepping the answer anyway. That seems to be the silly circle we are going in.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:39 PM #236
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
But the volume of paintballs changes the product. As an extreme example, a day of paintball with everyone shooting 100 paintballs each compared to the same day with everyone shooting 10,000 paintballs each would be two totally different things. That's an extreme example and an extreme difference in products. But there is a difference in any variation in volume of paintballs. Even the difference between 500 paintballs each and 1,000 paintballs each can be seen, it's just not as extreme. We happen to provide a certain product.
Lets start here. Like all of us have already said, instead of screwing your customers you should limit the paint that they can buy. Does exactly the same thing except now you didn't rape their wallet.

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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
A low volume product, but we still need similar income per player to stay in business.
Are you really this dense? If a player pays you $60 to play with one bag of paint, and a player pays a good field $60 to play with one case, how in the hell are you making the same amount of money? We aren't stupid, don't think you can get away with squalling that crap and not be called out.

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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
To the person that said that we make 5 times as much as other fields, you must be using some of that new math. For us to make 5 times as much, the average player would need to spend 5 times as much (they don't) with us having the same expenses as another field, or we would have to have the same income with our expenses 5 times lower (which they obviously aren't), or something in between that would be just as laughable. Give your head a shake. If you know nothing about business, you probably shouldn't make hair brained statements like that.
You just believe we all have the IQ of a pencil. Do you want me to break down why you are making 5 times more than a good field? Okay here it is. By the numbers, no tricks, plain and simple. Don't try to bend the words, just try to defend your ignorant statements. All wholesale prices are hypothetical, don't be a moron about it.

There are two fields within 1 mile of each other. Each field pays $25 for each case of paint. Neither field has an HPA compressor so they pay for nitrogen in scuba tanks. Both fields are the same size and have the same rent. Both fields employ 10 refs.

Field "A" charges $30 that covers a rental marker, tank and mask and includes air and field as well as one bag of paint. They then sell paint at $50 per case, making a $25 profit per case sold.

Field "H" charges $30 that covers a rental marker, tank and mask and includes air and field fee, no paint. They charge $10 per 100 paintballs or $45 for one bag. They then sell paint at $180 per case, make a $155 profit per case sold.

Now I know that you are dense, so take a coffee break here before you get lost.

Okay, so lets say that one person at each field wants a rental, all day air and field, and one bag of paint.

At field "A" the total is $30.

At field "H" the total is $30 + $45 for the paint bringing the total to $75.

Now since both fields have the same cost involved for that package, lets see what profits are going to be.

Each bag of paint costs each field $6.25 cents. Lets say that each field spends, on average, $5 per person per day for air, lube and other perishables.

The total cost of that one player is $5 plus $6.25 which is $11.25.

Field "A") $30 - 11.25 = $18.75 profit on one player

Field "H") $75 - 11.25 = $63.75 profit on one player


63.75 / 18.75 = 3.4 times more profit for Field "H".

So I was a little off, you aren't making 5 times more money, only 3 and a half times more than a good field.

Based on your previous responses we have been told that you have the same amount, if not more players each weekend than a less expensive field.


The average field will have 25-30 players each day, more if they have no competition. 30 players x 63.75 profit per player is $1912 per average day.

Another coffee break, I can see you sweating.



Okay so now we have established that the same customer using the same equipment and buying the same amount of paint is making you 375% more profit than a reasonable field. Lets talk about what you get for your money now. I'm not talking about intangible, I'm only talking about the hard goods they receive.



Once more we will go by the numbers comparison except this time each player has a set amount that they can spend. Lets put that limit at $75.


This time they have their own gear and don't need to rent. All they need is air and paint.

The field fee including all day air for "A" is $10. The field fee with all day air is $20 at "H". Double the profit, same expenses.

At "A" the player can pay the $10 all day air and field fee and buy 1 case of paint at $50 and one bag of paint at $15.

At "H" the player can pay the $20 field and air fee and buy one bag of paint at $45 and 100 additional rounds for $10.

The thing is field "H" will not have to fill the tank again to fire 600 rounds. This means more profit due to less expense.

So what you get for your money?

At field "A" you play all day, fill your tank 3 or 4 times and get 2500 rounds to fire. If you don't use them all, take them home or bring them back next weekend.


At field "H" you play all day, fill your tank once and get 600 rounds.

Coffee break.

Now lets look at field profits on those two players.

Field "A" spent $5 for the air and perishables. They spent $31.25 on the paint for a total of $36.25.

Field "H" spent $2 for the air and perishables. They spent $7.50 on the paint for a total of $9.50.

Field "A" made $38.75 profit on that player. Field "H" made $65.50 on that player.

What that means is that field "H" made double the profit and sold less than 25% as many paintballs.

This all means that field "H" has less than half the expense while making over double the money.


So you give your customers less product for their money and make twice as much as a good field.


How do you like that break down? I left nothing out, and you have zero chance of finding fault in the equation. You make a lot more and sell a lot less, simple as that.


Oh, and boom.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:41 PM #237
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:37 AM #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
Lets start here. Like all of us have already said, instead of screwing your customers you should limit the paint that they can buy. Does exactly the same thing except now you didn't rape their wallet.
Weíve been over this. Customers do not want to be mandated a hard limit. It would be suicide for any business. Iím sorry if you donít agree or understand.
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Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
Are you really this dense? If a player pays you $60 to play with one bag of paint, and a player pays a good field $60 to play with one case, how in the hell are you making the same amount of money? We aren't stupid, don't think you can get away with squalling that crap and not be called out.
First of all, I never said we are making the same. I said we need similar income to stay in business. This is about as much as I am ever going to give you from my financial statements. Less than 40% of our expenses has anything to do with paintballs. That means over 60% of our expenses are not paintball related. We also canít get paintballs for $6.25 cost per bag (maybe we could if we bought some off sales crappy white box paint, but we will never do that). But letís say this other mystery field can. In your example their cost for the case of paint is $25. If the $25 is say 40% of their overall expenses, then their total cost for expenses (Cost of Goods Sold plus operating expenses) of that $60 sale is $62.50 (more than the sale). Considerably more once you subtract the sales tax out of the $60 (assuming there is sales tax and I believe all places in USA and Canada has sales tax of some kind). Therefore your comparison is not comparable. Maybe weíre not good business people and put too much of our income back into our field. I donít know. But my point is, youíre comparing apples to oranges. This mystery field that you keep mentioning cannot exist here unless itís some crap field in someoneís backyard with very little infrastructure and services. Come back when you start comparing apples to apples.
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Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
You just believe we all have the IQ of a pencil. Do you want me to break down why you are making 5 times more than a good field? Okay here it is. By the numbers, no tricks, plain and simple. Don't try to bend the words, just try to defend your ignorant statements. All wholesale prices are hypothetical, don't be a moron about it.

There are two fields within 1 mile of each other. Each field pays $25 for each case of paint. Neither field has an HPA compressor so they pay for nitrogen in scuba tanks. Both fields are the same size and have the same rent. Both fields employ 10 refs.

Field "A" charges $30 that covers a rental marker, tank and mask and includes air and field as well as one bag of paint. They then sell paint at $50 per case, making a $25 profit per case sold.

Field "H" charges $30 that covers a rental marker, tank and mask and includes air and field fee, no paint. They charge $10 per 100 paintballs or $45 for one bag. They then sell paint at $180 per case, make a $155 profit per case sold.

Now I know that you are dense, so take a coffee break here before you get lost.

Okay, so lets say that one person at each field wants a rental, all day air and field, and one bag of paint.

At field "A" the total is $30.

At field "H" the total is $30 + $45 for the paint bringing the total to $75.

Now since both fields have the same cost involved for that package, lets see what profits are going to be.

Each bag of paint costs each field $6.25 cents. Lets say that each field spends, on average, $5 per person per day for air, lube and other perishables.

The total cost of that one player is $5 plus $6.25 which is $11.25.

Field "A") $30 - 11.25 = $18.75 profit on one player

Field "H") $75 - 11.25 = $63.75 profit on one player


63.75 / 18.75 = 3.4 times more profit for Field "H".

So I was a little off, you aren't making 5 times more money, only 3 and a half times more than a good field.

Based on your previous responses we have been told that you have the same amount, if not more players each weekend than a less expensive field.


The average field will have 25-30 players each day, more if they have no competition. 30 players x 63.75 profit per player is $1912 per average day.

Another coffee break, I can see you sweating.



Okay so now we have established that the same customer using the same equipment and buying the same amount of paint is making you 375% more profit than a reasonable field. Lets talk about what you get for your money now. I'm not talking about intangible, I'm only talking about the hard goods they receive.



Once more we will go by the numbers comparison except this time each player has a set amount that they can spend. Lets put that limit at $75.


This time they have their own gear and don't need to rent. All they need is air and paint.

The field fee including all day air for "A" is $10. The field fee with all day air is $20 at "H". Double the profit, same expenses.

At "A" the player can pay the $10 all day air and field fee and buy 1 case of paint at $50 and one bag of paint at $15.

At "H" the player can pay the $20 field and air fee and buy one bag of paint at $45 and 100 additional rounds for $10.

The thing is field "H" will not have to fill the tank again to fire 600 rounds. This means more profit due to less expense.

So what you get for your money?

At field "A" you play all day, fill your tank 3 or 4 times and get 2500 rounds to fire. If you don't use them all, take them home or bring them back next weekend.


At field "H" you play all day, fill your tank once and get 600 rounds.

Coffee break.

Now lets look at field profits on those two players.

Field "A" spent $5 for the air and perishables. They spent $31.25 on the paint for a total of $36.25.

Field "H" spent $2 for the air and perishables. They spent $7.50 on the paint for a total of $9.50.

Field "A" made $38.75 profit on that player. Field "H" made $65.50 on that player.

What that means is that field "H" made double the profit and sold less than 25% as many paintballs.

This all means that field "H" has less than half the expense while making over double the money.


So you give your customers less product for their money and make twice as much as a good field.


How do you like that break down? I left nothing out, and you have zero chance of finding fault in the equation. You make a lot more and sell a lot less, simple as that.


Oh, and boom.
Nice try. See above!
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:26 AM #239
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
We’ve been over this. Customers do not want to be mandated a hard limit. It would be suicide for any business. I’m sorry if you don’t agree or understand.
First of all, I never said we are making the same. I said we need similar income to stay in business. This is about as much as I am ever going to give you from my financial statements. Less than 40% of our expenses has anything to do with paintballs. That means over 60% of our expenses are not paintball related. We also can’t get paintballs for $6.25 cost per bag (maybe we could if we bought some off sales crappy white box paint, but we will never do that). But let’s say this other mystery field can. In your example their cost for the case of paint is $25. If the $25 is say 40% of their overall expenses, then their total cost for expenses (Cost of Goods Sold plus operating expenses) of that $60 sale is $62.50 (more than the sale). Considerably more once you subtract the sales tax out of the $60 (assuming there is sales tax and I believe all places in USA and Canada has sales tax of some kind). Therefore your comparison is not comparable. Maybe we’re not good business people and put too much of our income back into our field. I don’t know. But my point is, you’re comparing apples to oranges. This mystery field that you keep mentioning cannot exist here unless it’s some crap field in someone’s backyard with very little infrastructure and services. Come back when you start comparing apples to apples.
Nice try. See above!
Theoretical situations to show the flow of logic can not be beat by using your particular situation. The logic is still there, you're still making more money per case of paint. As has been said why not just charge a higher field fee if your field is that totally ****ing awesome that people just can't stay away, charge normal prices for paint, limit paint buying privlidges(you said yourself you have done so in the past) You still make the same amount of money(unless you charge so much for paint because your field is usually slow[not too hard to believe since a field owner who is ok with charging that much for paint probably is completely ok with lieing about the amount of people attending his business, people won't want to come if you yourself say there's not many people to play against.]) Weren't you just complaining earlier that we can't compare this apples to apples we must compare it apples to oranges? Again with the flawless logic coming from you:megadodgy:. Come back when you can keep your arguments straight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
See, that's where the problem lies. You are comparing apples to apples. But your field with your pricing structure is providing apples, while we are providing oranges. That's the whole point.

Last edited by randomdean : 10-15-2012 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:26 AM #240
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Hey, dummy, I already said that both fields pay the same for everything. It doesn't matter if the cost is $100 per case, your laughable price inflation is still 4 times what a good field charges. If you can't get paint at $6.25 a bag for good mid grade then not only do players hate your business, vendors do too. I know what pricing is, and almost all venders recommend a 2/1 profit on paint(you pay $25, you sell $50). Looks like they realized how bad you were bending over your customers and decided to give you a dose of your own medicine. And I applaud them for it. Since good fields make about $25 a case, they should be charging you $150 a case.

You can't beat the argument I just put up. You can do your best to dodge and duck, but you can't beat it.

If all things are equal, which they are at most parks, you are making 4 times the profit over a good field.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:29 AM #241
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Come back when you can keep your arguments straight.
This. X100
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:57 AM #242
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Originally Posted by Horizon View Post
This mystery field that you keep mentioning cannot exist here unless itís some crap field in someoneís backyard with very little infrastructure and services.
Really? How much you wanna bet?

http://www.carnagepaintball.com/page...bility-pricing

My local field.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:54 AM #243
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Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
Really? How much you wanna bet?

http://www.carnagepaintball.com/page...bility-pricing

My local field.
I kinda like that girls get price breaks there, good idea to get a bit more...diversity in the sport
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:08 AM #244
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OP, Most fields around me are 80 a case. The season pass pricing is around 65. You should be happy with 60 a case. Paintball fields make the majority of their money off of paint. Paintball is an expensive sport, get used to it.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:53 AM #245
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Originally Posted by randomdean View Post
Theoretical situations to show the flow of logic can not be beat by using your particular situation. The logic is still there, you're still making more money per case of paint. As has been said why not just charge a higher field fee if your field is that totally ****ing awesome that people just can't stay away, charge normal prices for paint, limit paint buying privlidges(you said yourself you have done so in the past) You still make the same amount of money(unless you charge so much for paint because your field is usually slow[not too hard to believe since a field owner who is ok with charging that much for paint probably is completely ok with lieing about the amount of people attending his business, people won't want to come if you yourself say there's not many people to play against.]) Weren't you just complaining earlier that we can't compare this apples to apples we must compare it apples to oranges? Again with the flawless logic coming from you:megadodgy:. Come back when you can keep your arguments straight.
You totally don't get it. The reason our field is is busier is BECAUSE we charge more for paintballs to control the environment. To make a comparison of what would happen if we changed our pricing structure to something where our paint prices were as low as the examples you guys are using and then putting a hard limit on paint instead is something you can experiment with if you like when you own a field.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:06 AM #246
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You totally don't get it. The reason our field is is busier is BECAUSE we charge more for paintballs to control the environment. To make a comparison of what would happen if we changed our pricing structure to something where our paint prices were as low as the examples you guys are using and then putting a hard limit on paint instead is something you can experiment with if you like when you own a field.
I have a hard time believing that the laws of economics don't work in canada.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:10 AM #247
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Originally Posted by Tempted View Post
Really? How much you wanna bet?

http://www.carnagepaintball.com/page...bility-pricing

My local field.
Nice. That's not here. That's in Georgia. Operating expenses in British Columbia Canada and Georgia, USA are barely comparable.

Unless there have been major changes, I didn't see anything in the photos for infrastructure except spools, pallets and some sheets of plywood thrown into the mix.

It doesn't even look like they supply camo or coveralls or anything of that nature. My laundry bill and wear and tear on our camo might just be higher than their daily expenses for all I (and you) know.

Most importantly, I can guarantee you that even that field could not exist if ALL their customers were only spending $30 each including a bag of paint. I bet you any money that the average income per player at that field is higher than $30. The average person spends more than $30.

Apples to oranges.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:19 AM #248
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I have a hard time believing that the laws of economics don't work in canada.
They absolutely do. Lower a price, people buy more, raise a price, people buy less. Not only do the Law of Economic work, but the whole premise of the higher priced paintballs/lower volume usage is based around that very fact.

But like just about every field owner will tell you, our main business is not selling paintballs. Our business is selling an experience; selling fun.

We use the Laws of Supply and Demand on paintballs (the little rough spheres) to our advantage to increase the value of what we truly Supply, which is the paintball experience (game).

At this point we're just going around in circles. I have to get ready to go to my other job, so I will leave you with that.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:45 AM #249
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Field economics cannot be shrunk down the price of a case of paint. Case vs Case is too narrow.

Try looking at the Expenses/income on a monthly basis, or better yet a yearly basis...

Your field "A" that sells paint at $45 a case may sell 10, 20, 30...times more paint in a year than the field "B"

Ignoring the factor of bulk buying discounts... If Field "B" still has all the same operating costs (excluding paint cost) at field "A" (Unlikely, no two fields will ever be equal in operating costs) then at the end of the year both fields may have only brought in a similar amount of income to cover their similar costs.


If 30 people go to field "A" and spend $60 and 30 people go to field "B" and spend $60 then both fields are bringing in the same money...

HOW the field gets the player to spend that $60 is up to them, encourage high volume through low priced paint or Low volume through Higher priced paint or Moderate volume with moderate priced paint...Either way the player is going to spend roughly the same amount at either field.


"But the basic package including 500 balls only cost $30 at my field..." My question to that is how many people ONLY use that 500 and do not buy more? Say that is the case with all the rentals...(Unlikely) What about the regulars? Does every single regular only shoot 500 rounds? Not likely.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:43 AM #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomdean View Post
I have a hard time believing that the laws of economics don't work in canada.
You haven't demonstrated an understanding of the "laws of economics", so it's not surprising you are having a hard time with this.

Any actual economist will tell you that price is only *one* part of economics and there are other factors that go into things as well....which in this case would be things like "how much fun do I have", "how much aggravation is there", and the like....which Horizon has been *trying* to explain to you.

When you completely oversimplify a subject and learn the wrong lessons from it, you make *very* bad assumptions and decisions about thing. This is evidenced by most of what you've written.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:44 PM #251
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Quote:
Originally Posted by universal_dave View Post
You haven't demonstrated an understanding of the "laws of economics", so it's not surprising you are having a hard time with this.

Any actual economist will tell you that price is only *one* part of economics and there are other factors that go into things as well....which in this case would be things like "how much fun do I have", "how much aggravation is there", and the like....which Horizon has been *trying* to explain to you.

When you completely oversimplify a subject and learn the wrong lessons from it, you make *very* bad assumptions and decisions about thing. This is evidenced by most of what you've written.
I'm not having a hard time at all with this. I'm not disputing that it doesn't work, I'm disputing his methods when there are far more ethical ways of achieving the same effect. I've been purposefully ignoring half of his arguments because he still has been ignoring half of my points. He still hasn't commented on the why he can't do a set limit on paint sales, why he can't move the extra charge that helps keep his, expensive(his words not mine), field afloat to the field fee(isn't that what the field fee is supposed to do? Be the cash that is supposed to be used to cover running expenses).

I haven't oversimplified anything because I didn't even try and explain in what ways the laws of economics don't work in Canada or even what laws I was talking about. I believe it is you that is making very bad assumptions by assuming that I don't understand the laws of economics when I haven't tried to demonstrate any of the laws of economics. I referenced supply and demand once, I referenced the broad range of economics a few times. In none of these cases was I trying to show any kind of mastery of the subject which is what you, are wrongly, assuming. And in any of the cases where I threw out percentages or prices that I came up with were to show a logically similar, theoretical, situation in which the audacity of his practices are more clearly shown.

As I've said before I don't care how much money he makes or doesn't make. He keeps bouncing back and forth between it's to help keep the environment friendly to new comers but also says he has an expensive and nice field to run so he needs the extra cash because it is of a higher quality than any field that has been referenced.

And about your other factors of economics aggravation, overshooting, people not having fun. That is a ref issue, not an amount of paint sales issue. At the field I ref at we do rental packages including 500 balls, rental, field fee, all day air, all for $40, most renters only use those 500 balls. A few here and there grab another bag but that's usually it. People don't complain about getting lit up, run down, etc... because we, as refs, make sure it is a fun environment. That is what your refs are for, to police the grounds and make sure everything is kosher and fun. We don't need to overprice the paint to keep it fun for everyone because the people who work actually do their jobs and make sure everyone is having fun.

Last edited by randomdean : 10-15-2012 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:31 PM #252
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That's a whole lot of arm waving, and it still doesn't demonstrate that you know what you're talking about when you say "the laws of economics" (something nobody forced you to say, it was merely something you brought into this apparently to try to insinuate that science somehow proved that you were right and he was wrong).

You keep *ignoring* half of what's been said, apparently because you don't understand how it pretty directly relates to the "economics" of the situation.

While not the whole of the subject, there's a whole lot of "economics" that comes down to studying how people *make* value judgements...what the reactions to hard limits vs soft limits are...how incentives can drive behavior.

You CUT OFF things and don't look at or consider them...."oh, that's a ref issue". Sure, it *can* ref issue, but it's also an *economic* one. Incentives and soft limits *on their own* can produce the same result that you apparently have to *pay* people to bring about artificially. Why hasn't he commented on your "brilliant" idea to put a hard limit on paint sales? Because it's such a bad idea it's hardly worth commenting on. Most hard limits (however good the reasons for them are) are things that customers view as something to be *defeated*, not adhered to. An incentive is generally much more workable than a hard limit.

That's all part of "the laws of economics"...which is why your use of the phrase is (for me) a big neon blinky sign you're hanging over your own head that flashes "Hey! Watch me look the fool!"

Horizon made a set of choices to operate a business in a way that he thought would produce an affect that he desired in an unobtrusive way. It seems from his still being in business, that he's at least marginally successful at it. Several folks here (you among them) focus on *one* particular choice that you find offensive and call him names and verbally abuse him spouting half formed arguments that are supposed to *look* a lot more substantive than they really are...all to boil down to "he runs his business in a way you think you don't like".

Well, guess what? Your power in the situation is the same as everyone else...if you don't like it, don't play there.
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Last edited by universal_dave : 10-15-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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