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Old 10-04-2012, 04:47 PM #379
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No, I believe that morality is dependant on the circumstance that one finds themselves in. And Christ was not considered divine until 300 years after he died. I believe in the teachings the same way that I believe in the teachings of MLK.

And again, it is not for men to interpret the mind of God; maybe the choices I make when faced with a decision are more important than what is written in a book that has been rewritten a dozen times over mostly by men who are more educated and have more power than those around them.

I believe that people also use religion as an attempt to not take accountability for their own actions, as well as a tool to control those around them. "God says that I should hate the gays; therefore it is morally correct that I am a homophobe". People do not want to look at themselves as flawed, and many times an interpretation of the bible gives them an out.
Youre not answering my question. Morality is not a circumstancial concept.

You claim that we cannot know Gods mind. Fine. But I'm asking, does an objective morality exist? Regardless of whether or not we can perceive it.

So you reject the divinity of Jesus and call yourself a Christian? Even gnostic Christianity accepted christ as divine. Albeit in a slightly different, but ultimately similar role.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:00 PM #380
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I would like to poke holes in some of this...but, by current standards your right, and I can't....
*You're.*
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You have said the same thing 5 different times but fail to give an argument why your position is valid. You say that it is not a right, but according to law in most developed nations it is a right for a woman to have an abortion. Failing to recognize that it is an established LEGAL RIGHT for a woman to abort is failure to recognize a basic fact, like the sky is blue....
Just because it's legal does not make it an actual right.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:01 PM #381
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*You're.*

Just because it's legal does not make it an actual right.
Do you just go around pointing out spelling mistakes?
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:23 AM #382
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Maybe if that solar powered car was on Mercury, sure. Lol.

I'm sure he means organic. But remember, for it to be life it must be able to reproduce. Infants cannot reproduce.

Again it goes right back into the transient form thing.
So juvenile animals are not "alive" because they have not developed the capacity to reproduce? What is the point are you trying to make?

And overbear's screaming "Science says!" to justify his bigotry and garbage rational is ****ing appalling. He has one of the least scientific minds I have ever encountered.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:26 AM #383
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*You're.*

Just because it's legal does not make it an actual right.
In this case it does. Just as the right to free speech is protected by law, so is the right for a woman to abort if she so chooses. Can you realistically attempt to get a court injunction against a woman who has chosen to abort? People have tried and failed, because it is her right.

I do not disagree that the entire practice is MORALLY questionable, but you have argued several times that a woman does not have the right to abort. I have asked you directly several times to substantiate your case with reasoning, and all I get are repeated one liners. If you have substance to your argument, then give it.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:30 AM #384
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So juvenile animals are not "alive" because they have not developed the capacity to reproduce? What is the point are you trying to make?

And overbear's screaming "Science says!" to justify his bigotry and garbage rational is ****ing appalling. He has one of the least scientific minds I have ever encountered.
Actually I was pointing out the absurdity of the argument.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:37 AM #385
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Youre not answering my question. Morality is not a circumstancial concept.

You claim that we cannot know Gods mind. Fine. But I'm asking, does an objective morality exist? Regardless of whether or not we can perceive it.

So you reject the divinity of Jesus and call yourself a Christian? Even gnostic Christianity accepted christ as divine. Albeit in a slightly different, but ultimately similar role.
I'll try and be more direct: I do not believe in an objective code of morality that will fit every individual in every circumstance. Therefore, moral relativism would most likely describe my views.

In circumstances such as mine where I have been with my partner for several years and I am in an excellent financial situation I would not be able to morally defend trying to have my partner abort. However, I have worked with patients where after about 15 minutes of talking to them I have no way of questioning the morality of their decision.

As per my previous post, I question the interpretation of Christ as a divine figure. I find it more probable that he was either a well intentioned religious leader or prophet. I do not believe in a literal translation of the bible, and the majority of the directions it gives are biased based on the interpretation/translation/commissioner involved. I believe that there is a God, that if I strive to be a good and decent person that I may be rewarded for it in some fashion. But I can never know, that that's the basis of faith. That is also why when people argue based on faith it drives me up the wall as it is completely a personal concept.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:40 AM #386
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I don't like abortion. I have the means to raise a child, and if I were in that situation I would offer my support. But telling other people what they can and cannot do with their reproductive system seems worse.

A zygote is a zygote. A fetus is a fetus. It's not an infant and it's not a newborn. Without the mother, it's dead within minutes if not seconds - you cannot pretend they're separate organisms or individuals. In a few years scientists will probably be able to take stem cells from bone marrow and create zygotes, does that mean your bone marrow cells are human beings? All the information is there.

Anyway, people who are actually interested in reducing abortion rates should take note: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-...wer-abortions/

But if you're just interested in legislating other people's bodies, by all means continue.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:14 AM #387
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Actually I was pointing out the absurdity of the argument.
NVM then. That **** about made my head explode.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:13 AM #388
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NVM then. That **** about made my head explode.
Yeah I don't know if you had read anything I posted before that but it might have helped.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:44 AM #389
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I'll try and be more direct: I do not believe in an objective code of morality that will fit every individual in every circumstance. Therefore, moral relativism would most likely describe my views.
I understood the point about individuals, but I'm actually asking about God now. Two questions:

(Because God is good)Is God moral?

Does divine/eternal law exist?

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As per my previous post, I question the interpretation of Christ as a divine figure. I find it more probable that he was either a well intentioned religious leader or prophet. I do not believe in a literal translation of the bible, and the majority of the directions it gives are biased based on the interpretation/translation/commissioner involved. I believe that there is a God, that if I strive to be a good and decent person that I may be rewarded for it in some fashion. But I can never know, that that's the basis of faith. That is also why when people argue based on faith it drives me up the wall as it is completely a personal concept.
Don't take this the wrong way, but you are not a Christian if you do not accept the divinity of Christ. Perhaps you should consider yourself a deist. That being said, I don't feel you are justified in judging other Christians. Even Neoplatonic Christians like Aquinas had some conception of an objective morality/ethic. The principle notion in every religion is the throwing away of limited human perspective and perception.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:30 PM #390
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I understood the point about individuals, but I'm actually asking about God now. Two questions:

(Because God is good)Is God moral?

Does divine/eternal law exist?



Don't take this the wrong way, but you are not a Christian if you do not accept the divinity of Christ. Perhaps you should consider yourself a deist. That being said, I don't feel you are justified in judging other Christians. Even Neoplatonic Christians like Aquinas had some conception of an objective morality/ethic. The principle notion in every religion is the throwing away of limited human perspective and perception.
It isn't the individual Christian that I have an issue with, it is what happens when any faith is institutionalized.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:48 PM #391
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It isn't the individual Christian that I have an issue with, it is what happens when any faith is institutionalized.
But you don't even appear to accept basic tenets of Christianity. Why even care in the first place or bother labeling yourself as Christian? The first part of that is rhetorical, I know you're a moral humanist. I mean, you believe in God and God is good so how can objective morality not exist? Is God not good? Saying otherwise puts you at odds with the entire collection of Abrahamic Tradition.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:33 PM #392
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But you don't even appear to accept basic tenets of Christianity. Why even care in the first place or bother labeling yourself as Christian? The first part of that is rhetorical, I know you're a moral humanist. I mean, you believe in God and God is good so how can objective morality not exist? Is God not good? Saying otherwise puts you at odds with the entire collection of Abrahamic Tradition.
As I said before, I don't call myself a "Christian" in the traditional sense, I call myself a person of faith. I just do not believe in a cookie cutter interpretation to morality that an action is always right or always wrong no matter what, thereby removing the ability for an objective morality to exist. I do believe in a benevolent deity, and I believe that there is a purpose for every individual. But proof is impossible, I have faith.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:26 PM #393
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As I said before, I don't call myself a "Christian" in the traditional sense, I call myself a person of faith. I just do not believe in a cookie cutter interpretation to morality that an action is always right or always wrong no matter what, thereby removing the ability for an objective morality to exist. I do believe in a benevolent deity, and I believe that there is a purpose for every individual. But proof is impossible, I have faith.
I question why you bother with a label you bare no likeness to.

I'm also confused as to how you believe an objective good (god) exists but an objective morality does not exist. It seems counter intuitive.
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Old 10-05-2012, 09:02 PM #394
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I question why you bother with a label you bare no likeness to.

I'm also confused as to how you believe an objective good (god) exists but an objective morality does not exist. It seems counter intuitive.
I'm gonna skip the first one, as I've said I don't see myself as a Christian in the traditional sense.

I get a loophole; as I've already stated that we as flawed lesser beings cannot know the mind of a omnipotent creator. It's faith, it's personal, and I don't see how I could ever explain a faith I have come to embrace to someone else.

I'm going to bow out at this point as I think we've been hijacking the thread. However, I have appreciated intelligent conversation and if you can make it up to northern Minnesota I'd be happy to buy you a beer.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:53 AM #395
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I'm gonna skip the first one, as I've said I don't see myself as a Christian in the traditional sense.

I get a loophole; as I've already stated that we as flawed lesser beings cannot know the mind of a omnipotent creator. It's faith, it's personal, and I don't see how I could ever explain a faith I have come to embrace to someone else.

I'm going to bow out at this point as I think we've been hijacking the thread. However, I have appreciated intelligent conversation and if you can make it up to northern Minnesota I'd be happy to buy you a beer.
It's been fun.

I'll take you up on that offer if I'm ever in the area. I'll extend the same offer, should you find yourself in southern California.
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